We have to draft OL early and often... no F/A retreads

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Alan

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Memento using his bus transfer to change from the short yellow bus to the full sized one:
I only dislike Scherff and Flowers. Peat, Collins, Clemmings, Sambrailo, hell, even Fisher and Darryl Williams I like.
I was going to call you something that rhymes with stupid but now that I know you like my favorite O-line player (Collins) I'm forced to acknowledge how brilliant you are! :bow: :LOL:

I'm still going to advise you to stay awya from those rotten shrooms. You'll be seeing the Black Queen in your dreams instead of the Red Queen.
 

Boston Ram

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He looked bad in drills...one on one....not just the kick slide to the left....

Agreed, I still think his season speaks for itself. He will need some coaching but although his performance at the SR bowl created some doubt and maybe made what I thought was at top 10 prospect 10 being the roof lol, now a top 20 prospect. I trust what I have seen and still think he can emerge as the best T of the group.

You like Flowers, right? Do you like him more than Clemmings? Just a curiosity question because I tend to agree with a lot of your posts.
 

Memento

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He looked bad in drills...one on one....not just the kick slide to the left....

As bad as Clemmings was at the Senior Bowl, Flowers was even worse at the Combine. His work in the pass-blocking drills was awful. His kick-slide was atrocious either way. One on one? Don't even mention it. His technique is practically unfixable at this point. No way I'd trust him as a tackle. Ever.

Also, if I were the Rams, I'd keep a close eye on Brad Kaaya, that young quarterback whom Flowers had to protect. He did so much last year, and as a true freshman no less. He definitely looks the part (6'4" with room to grow) and passes the test on film (He nearly led Miami to a comeback win over FSU before Jalen Ramsey - a future top ten prospect next year and another guy I want the Rams to look at - blindsided him twice on third and fourth down.) I want to see what he can do with a better left tackle protecting him.

(About Ramsey, not going to lie, he reminds me a tiny bit of Neon Deion with his pure speed and ability all over the field.)
 

LACHAMP46

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You like Flowers, right? Do you like him more than Clemmings? Just a curiosity question because I tend to agree with a lot of your posts.
Thanks for the compliment Boston ( you guys got a real one in Hanley Ramirez)I saw a lot of those games were Clemmings looked like a man among boys...Especially his pas pro...I can see why many would prefer him to Flowers....In fact, I did too until the combine....But the senior bowl was a tip off, as I started to look at the players he was matched against. Then I looked at who Flowers played against, and I imagine he practiced against. There was my answer. Clemmings rarely played against pro-types, or faced players that were as strong or stronger, as fast or faster, and it showed. He was only shown how raw he is due to his play vs elite players. Flowers plays against the best in games, and practice...He is raw too, esp. in pass-pro. But he is a dominant run blocker. A truly powerful player. A top 10 talent. I really pay attention to bench press (squat too, but they don't post those numbers). If we want to run the ball, this is the type of prospect we need. Not a future LT, that plays patty-cake with LE's....Tyron Smith was taught how to pass protect, but was a physical run blocker at USC...I see the same in Flowers

Flowers was even worse at the Combine. His work in the pass-blocking drills was awful. His kick-slide was atrocious either way.
I think he was primarily on the left side on that kick slide drill, no? I thought for 330+ lbs, he moved well..Right tackle well...In shorts & shirts...Clemmings was in PADS, in ONE on ONE DRILLS when he was getting blowed back (I know that it's supposed to be blown, but a friend of mine used to say blowed and it always was funny and sounds better). He reminds me of Fisher, Joeckle, and, wait for it, Matthews, these technical freaks that wilt in the face of men. Big men, Calais Campbell size men, Darnell Dockett type men, Mike Bennett type men, Rob Quinn, Chris Long, Houston, & Kerrigan types...you get my drift? You need a road grader on the right side...not a ballerina...
 

Boston Ram

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Thanks for the compliment Boston ( you guys got a real one in Hanley Ramirez)I saw a lot of those games were Clemmings looked like a man among boys...Especially his pas pro...I can see why many would prefer him to Flowers....In fact, I did too until the combine....But the senior bowl was a tip off, as I started to look at the players he was matched against. Then I looked at who Flowers played against, and I imagine he practiced against. There was my answer. Clemmings rarely played against pro-types, or faced players that were as strong or stronger, as fast or faster, and it showed. He was only shown how raw he is due to his play vs elite players. Flowers plays against the best in games, and practice...He is raw too, esp. in pass-pro. But he is a dominant run blocker. A truly powerful player. A top 10 talent. I really pay attention to bench press (squat too, but they don't post those numbers). If we want to run the ball, this is the type of prospect we need. Not a future LT, that plays patty-cake with LE's....Tyron Smith was taught how to pass protect, but was a physical run blocker at USC...I see the same in Flowers

Thanks for the breakdown! Good stuff. We are happy to have Hanley back where he started! You also have a good one in AGone! A friend of mine is a huge Dodgers fan and we always joke that the Red Sox are the East Coast Dodgers and the Dodgers are the West Coast Sox. Seems like over the past 10 years there have been so many players that have played for both. I cant wait for a Red Sox/Dodgers World Series some day. It could happen this year if the Sox can find an ace and Kershaw finds himself in October lol.
 

LACHAMP46

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We are happy to have Hanley back where he started! You also have a good one in AGone! A friend of mine is a huge Dodgers fan and we always joke that the Red Sox are the East Coast Dodgers and the Dodgers are the West Coast Sox. Seems like over the past 10 years there have been so many players that have played for both. I cant wait for a Red Sox/Dodgers World Series some day. It could happen this year if the Sox can find an ace and Kershaw finds himself in October lol.
Nervous about Kersh & the Cards stealing his signs. He hasn't looked the same, but it's still early...A-Gon is the real deal...We got another Cuban phenom too...Alex Guerrero...man!!!! I just wanna beat the Cards & the Giants...the WS can wait!!!!
 

Boston Ram

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Nervous about Kersh & the Cards stealing his signs. He hasn't looked the same, but it's still early...A-Gon is the real deal...We got another Cuban phenom too...Alex Guerrero...man!!!! I just wanna beat the Cards & the Giants...the WS can wait!!!!

It could take a few turns in the rotation for him to get his bearings back. He took a liner of the face at the end of Spring training. That's probably tough to get over mentally. At least you know ownership will do whatever they can to win.
 

Memento

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Thanks for the compliment Boston ( you guys got a real one in Hanley Ramirez)I saw a lot of those games were Clemmings looked like a man among boys...Especially his pas pro...I can see why many would prefer him to Flowers....In fact, I did too until the combine....But the senior bowl was a tip off, as I started to look at the players he was matched against. Then I looked at who Flowers played against, and I imagine he practiced against. There was my answer. Clemmings rarely played against pro-types, or faced players that were as strong or stronger, as fast or faster, and it showed. He was only shown how raw he is due to his play vs elite players. Flowers plays against the best in games, and practice...He is raw too, esp. in pass-pro. But he is a dominant run blocker. A truly powerful player. A top 10 talent. I really pay attention to bench press (squat too, but they don't post those numbers). If we want to run the ball, this is the type of prospect we need. Not a future LT, that plays patty-cake with LE's....Tyron Smith was taught how to pass protect, but was a physical run blocker at USC...I see the same in Flowers

I think he was primarily on the left side on that kick slide drill, no? I thought for 330+ lbs, he moved well..Right tackle well...In shorts & shirts...Clemmings was in PADS, in ONE on ONE DRILLS when he was getting blowed back (I know that it's supposed to be blown, but a friend of mine used to say blowed and it always was funny and sounds better). He reminds me of Fisher, Joeckle, and, wait for it, Matthews, these technical freaks that wilt in the face of men. Big men, Calais Campbell size men, Darnell Dockett type men, Mike Bennett type men, Rob Quinn, Chris Long, Houston, & Kerrigan types...you get my drift? You need a road grader on the right side...not a ballerina...

Tyron Smith was taught how to pass-protect on the left side. He already had the athleticism to pass-protect on the right side. Flowers isn't nearly the athlete that Smith was. And if you think that Clemmings is raw, then I don't know how you can think that Flowers isn't. Flowers got killed by Mario Edwards Jr., who will be a left end in the future, in brute strength. Jalen Ramsey made him look like a fool twice. He ran like a chicken with its head cut off on screens in the South Carolina game.

Watch his tape again. Put in the Florida State and South Carolina games, not the Nebraska game that everyone loves to quote. Flowers was on the left and right sides, and his kick slide either way was sluggish at best.
 

Memento

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Hey, I'm a Mizzu guy at heart...



http://draftbreakdown.com/a-beginners-guide-to-ol-hand-technique/



show me...I'm watching FSU right now...he looks pretty damn good...


Fails completely on Edwards Jr. and lets him push the pocket on Kaaya with multiple bullrushes instead of widening his base and anchoring. Completely blows his assignment on Ramsey twice at the end of the game when Kaaya had an opportunity to win it.

South Carolina, very first screen of the game. Doesn't block anyone; just runs around like a headless chicken. If he had, Duke Johnson would have gone much further.
 

LACHAMP46

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I just watched both of these games..I don't think Edwards made a tackle when Flowers was engaged with him...In fact, I'm sure of it...S.Carolina he played just as well if not better...Hell, I just got started with Virgina and against Eli Harold, a future BEAST, he's again playing like a premiere LEFT TACKLE...The thing is, his whole career, he's played vs some of the BEST, and has had dominant performances. That duke kid looks damn good too, and that QB has a cannon. They shoulda beat FSU...
It's apparent we both see what we want, and will have to agree to disagree, but check those vids again, he even passes off his man like a vet to engage a looping/stunting defender with ease...and these are pass-pro moves where Flowers is supposedly weakest...
 

jrry32

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Thanks for the compliment Boston ( you guys got a real one in Hanley Ramirez)I saw a lot of those games were Clemmings looked like a man among boys...Especially his pas pro...I can see why many would prefer him to Flowers....In fact, I did too until the combine....But the senior bowl was a tip off, as I started to look at the players he was matched against. Then I looked at who Flowers played against, and I imagine he practiced against. There was my answer. Clemmings rarely played against pro-types, or faced players that were as strong or stronger, as fast or faster, and it showed. He was only shown how raw he is due to his play vs elite players. Flowers plays against the best in games, and practice...He is raw too, esp. in pass-pro. But he is a dominant run blocker. A truly powerful player. A top 10 talent. I really pay attention to bench press (squat too, but they don't post those numbers). If we want to run the ball, this is the type of prospect we need. Not a future LT, that plays patty-cake with LE's....Tyron Smith was taught how to pass protect, but was a physical run blocker at USC...I see the same in Flowers

I think he was primarily on the left side on that kick slide drill, no? I thought for 330+ lbs, he moved well..Right tackle well...In shorts & shirts...Clemmings was in PADS, in ONE on ONE DRILLS when he was getting blowed back (I know that it's supposed to be blown, but a friend of mine used to say blowed and it always was funny and sounds better). He reminds me of Fisher, Joeckle, and, wait for it, Matthews, these technical freaks that wilt in the face of men. Big men, Calais Campbell size men, Darnell Dockett type men, Mike Bennett type men, Rob Quinn, Chris Long, Houston, & Kerrigan types...you get my drift? You need a road grader on the right side...not a ballerina...

There's a lot you can criticize with Clemmings...but criticizing his run blocking ability? That will make me question if you've seen him play in real games. He's a better run blocker than Flowers. Very arguably the best drive blocker in this class...and that's despite still needing to polish his technique as a run blocker.

Clemmings has no issues with strength or physicality. His issue is pass protection technique.

Which is the same issue that Flowers has.

And you've got it backwards on Tyron Smith. The concern with him coming out was his run blocking ability. He was an extremely athletic OT with an outstanding kick-slide, freakishly long arms, and great overall movement skills. People were concerned with his ability to keep weight on and generate movement in the ground game because he played in the 280 range in college and didn't show great power.
 
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LACHAMP46

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From gridironexperts:
Smith’s draft position might be influenced more by the teams at the top of the drafts style more than his skill. Power running teams should shy away from Smith, while teams that rely on zone blocking schemes and pass protection would do well picking the Trojan tackle.
http://gridironexperts.com/nfl-draft-profile-tyron-smith
http://newyork.sbnation.com/new-yor...th-new-york-giants-anthony-castonzo-nfl-draft
View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d81f2559a/2011-Draft-Profile-OT-Tyron-Smith-USC

all of these site his strength, and his weakness is implied...plus I watched this kid....a lot.

TJ Clemmings
http://draftbreakdown.com/dueling-scouting-reports-t-j-clemmings/
Check his competition...A power player in the SEC is a different type of power player. Would you agree on that? Hard to critique his film, great looking kick slide. First game I watched, the first few plays, TJ just pushes his man in the back on some running plays...hmmm
And remember, I initially liked TJ for the Rams....
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...clemmings-losing-buzz-as-potential-top10-pick

Just watch...tell me you see a player more prepared to play NFL football...Like I told you a while ago, the best tackle at the senior bowl, to me, was Donovan Smith...
 

jrry32

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From gridironexperts:
http://gridironexperts.com/nfl-draft-profile-tyron-smith
http://newyork.sbnation.com/new-yor...th-new-york-giants-anthony-castonzo-nfl-draft
View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d81f2559a/2011-Draft-Profile-OT-Tyron-Smith-USC

all of these site his strength, and his weakness is implied...plus I watched this kid....a lot.

TJ Clemmings
http://draftbreakdown.com/dueling-scouting-reports-t-j-clemmings/
Check his competition...A power player in the SEC is a different type of power player. Would you agree on that? Hard to critique his film, great looking kick slide. First game I watched, the first few plays, TJ just pushes his man in the back on some running plays...hmmm
And remember, I initially liked TJ for the Rams....
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...clemmings-losing-buzz-as-potential-top10-pick

Just watch...tell me you see a player more prepared to play NFL football...Like I told you a while ago, the best tackle at the senior bowl, to me, was Donovan Smith...


Check his competition? Ereck Flowers and T.J. Clemmings both played in the ACC. You have mentioned no concerns about Flowers's power and run blocking ability due to his competition.

Check his film. There isn't an OT in this class that gets the same movement that Clemmings does in the run game. Although, to be fair to Scherff, he plays in a ZBS so he doesn't have the same opportunities to drive block.

Donovan Smith might have been better at the Senior Bowl...but Clemmings was better when it counted. In real games. And he has no issues with weight and conditioning.

Hell, I'll even give you examples of his run blocking ability...he's the RT(#68) on all of these plays:

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11473213

Drives his man out of the hole and then seals him creating a huge lane for the HB

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11556711

4th and 1 and he pancakes his man

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11713454

Drives his man 5 yards out of the way

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11714032

Hits him so hard he actually lifts him off the ground and then drives him 5 yards out of the way

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11643604

Steps to cross his man's face to seal the B gap but the DL slants into the C gap and Clemmings still is able to turn and pancake him creating a huge running lane

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11762494

Meets his man in the hole and drives him down the LOS to the sideline which clears a huge lane for Conner to score

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11802011

Hits his man, drives him down the LOS, and pins him inside creating a large hole for Conner

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11955644

Facing Miami's DT...clears him out of the hole giving the HB a big lane to run through

View: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:12111701

Drives his man yards off the LOS creating a massive hole for the HB to run through

Clemmings has some knocks and he makes some mistakes as a run blocker due to technique but functional strength, drive blocking power, and nastiness aren't issues for him.

As far as Tyron Smith is concerned, here are more sites:
http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2011tsmith_greg.php
Tyron Smith did just that after the season, possibly learning from his former teammate Charles Brown, who wound up as the final pick of the second round. Both players move well laterally and are better at pass blocking than run blocking.
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2010/05/tyron-smith-scouting-report.html
Needs to get stronger – Is certainly not a road-grader
http://www.newerascouting.com/2011/01/04/tyron-smith-2011-nfl-draft-scouting-report/
Strength: This is where Smith needs to get better. He’s bulked up 20 pounds since entering college but needs to continue adding strength throughout his frame. When he’s asked to drive block in the run game, he’ll struggle moving defensive linemen around. Still, Smith gives very good effort and it takes a lot for a defender to beat him purely with a bull rush.

Again, Smith wasn't a perfect pass blocker by any means but the biggest questions with him were his weight and drive blocking power coming out.
 

LACHAMP46

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Check his competition? Ereck Flowers and T.J. Clemmings both played in the ACC. You have mentioned no concerns about Flowers's power and run blocking ability due to his competition.
Left side versus right side....Pitt non conference versus Miami non conference schedule..their respective bowl games...practiced vs NFL bodies, yeah Donald was at Pitt, bet Clemmings barely saw him then..Flowers went against Harold & Gregory all day long...Clemmings was playing patty-cake with some nobody....
Flowers shows power.... Clemmings is just sealing, acts like he doesn't wanna put any pads and helmet on anybody...
Glad I took a second look, these two are not even in the same league as blockers...Clemmings won't go 1st round....
 

jrry32

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Left side versus right side....Pitt non conference versus Miami non conference schedule..their respective bowl games...practiced vs NFL bodies, yeah Donald was at Pitt, bet Clemmings barely saw him then..Flowers went against Harold & Gregory all day long...Clemmings was playing patty-cake with some nobody....

And Flowers got embarrassed on multiple occasions by Gregory. Clemmings faced Dadi Nicolas and owned him. He faced Anthony Chickillo and owned him.

Left side versus right side means nothing when it comes to run blocking...if anything, the right tackle is asked to do more front-side blocking in most power schemes. So that would favor Clemmings.

Flowers shows power.... Clemmings is just sealing, acts like he doesn't wanna put any pads and helmet on anybody...
Glad I took a second look, these two are not even in the same league as blockers...Clemmings won't go 1st round....

I can't disagree more. Clemmings does his job and does it well. And I don't know why you would scoff at sealing. Your blocking scheme for each play lays out what you're expected to do. If you're expected to seal then you seal. Because they designed the run around you doing that. When Clemmings is asked to drive block or down block, he dominates. His power and ability to move people is elite. Especially for a 310 pound OT.

Acts like he doesn't want to put any pads and helmet on anybody? No way, Jose. That's like calling Amari Cooper a bad route runner.

But rather than repeat my own opinion, I'll add the opinions of others to it:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/t.j.-clemmings?id=2552365
Can secure a shoulder and torque defender out of a run play. Hands carry jarring power. Explodes out of stance into defender. Has mean streak. Accelerates feet after contact and finishes. Has the talent to make any block asked of him in the running game.
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2014/12/scouting-report-t-j-clemmings.html
He is very powerful and almost always wins one-on-one match-ups when it is power against power. He is the best run blocker I have watched to date. He also shows the athletic ability to get to the second level and to block linebackers and corners on bubble screens. Has a bit of a mean streak and will continue to block his man after the whistle.
http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/cfb/133453/tj-clemmings
"He is a very raw prospect due to his inexperience at the offensive tackle position, but he possesses excellent physical tools and is a very powerful run-blocker," McShay wrote. "He projects as more of a right tackle at the next level."
http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/cfb/133453/tj-clemmings
When in position, Clemmings has ridiculous power and can move his opposition to create lanes.
http://withthefirstpick.com/2014/12/16/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-report-t-j-clemmings-ot-pittsburgh/
Clemmings is a powerful and athletic run blocker that is consistently able to create problems for defenders. He is still developing some of the technical aspects of his game and needs to get more experience, but is an impact player right now. Clemmings is consistently able to move opponents off of the ball and create running lanes, which enable ball carriers to make some huge plays. He locks on, extends his arms and drives his feet to push opponents down the field.
http://archauthority.com/2015/01/02/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-report-pittsburgh-ot-t-j-clemmings/
Clemmings takes great advantage of his size and exerts plenty of physicality at the tackle position. He’s a very talented run blocker who will drive defenders into the ground, and though he’s still developing his pass-blocking skills, his athleticism obviously gives him a good chance to succeed in that area, also.
http://nfldraftgeek.com/tjclemmings-nfldraftscoutingreport.html
Elite strength; can hammer defenders off the snap. Potential to be dominant road-grader.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2015/...ing-t-j-clemmings-pittsburgh-offensive-tackle
He has a bit of a mean streak. He finishes his blocks and plays through the whistle.
Has the ability to be an elite run blocker at the next level.
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/1/30/7948179/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-report-t-j-clemmings
The things you look for in a big nasty are all present in Clemmings. He's ferocious, powerful and plays to the whistle. His technique is still a bit lacking - he'll get a bit high at times and has troubles with leverage. He also has his limitations when blocking in space, but run blocking is an area of strength for Clemmings and something he could eventually be known for.

I'm going to stop there. You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think it's an accurate one. I've watched a lot of games of Clemmings and the thing that constantly stood out to me was how strong he was as a run blocker. Pittsburgh was a power team that loved to run the football.

But the thing about prospects is that not everyone sees the same thing. You don't see a great run blocker. That's fair. I don't agree but that's the nature of the draft. Hell, when I was going through the scouting reports, there were 3 of them that felt the same way...that Clemmings wasn't a mauler. Obviously, there were 8 of them (that I posted here) that felt differently. But that just tells you that it's something that you're not going to total agreement on. Everyone has their own perspective and sees what they see.
 

LACHAMP46

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Clemmings faced Dadi Nicolas and owned him. He faced Anthony Chickillo and owned him.

Left side versus right side means nothing when it comes to run blocking...if anything, the right tackle is asked to do more front-side blocking in most power schemes.
Left side vs right side means nothing...okay...dadi nicolas & anthony chickillo...who?
you said a mouthful....up there, obviously you believe most/all of it...so if Flowers is taken before Clemmings, am I more knowledgeable than all these prognosticators? Draft in 13 more days...we'll see who is right...then the games are what, 6 months...we'll really see then....good talking with you jrry32...you too @Memento
 

jrry32

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Left side vs right side means nothing...okay...dadi nicolas & anthony chickillo...who?
you said a mouthful....up there, obviously you believe most/all of it...so if Flowers is taken before Clemmings, am I more knowledgeable than all these prognosticators? Draft in 13 more days...we'll see who is right...then the games are what, 6 months...we'll really see then....good talking with you jrry32...you too @Memento

Nope. Draft is all about the big picture...the long run. Remember...Aaron Rodgers went in the 20s while Alex Smith went #1.

In terms of run blocking, yes, it means nothing.

Dadi Nicolas is a projected 3rd to 4th round pick next year (will go higher if he tests close to where VT claims he can...reportedly posted a 4.4 40 and a 41 inch vertical at VT). Nicolas had 72 tackles, 18.5 TFLs, and 9 sacks in 2014...which topped both Harold and Gregory in all three categories. Anthony Chickillo is a projected 3rd to 4th round pick this year.