We have to draft OL early and often... no F/A retreads

[blue4]

It's going to take a combination of FAs and good drafting in the higher rounds to make our OL good this year. And we need it good this year. The window for us to actually do something is as open as it will ever be. Our draft picks have matured, a lot of players are nearing contract time, the Cardinals still have QB issues and are a tad overrated, and SF is shaping up to suck. Yes let's draft BPA for the OL, totally onboard with that, but we need Barksdale and Wiz at least IMO to make as sure as we can that we are competitive this year. Rolling the dice on an oft injured guy who's barely played like Jones or a 7th round camp guy who wasn't even healthy last year is just irresponsible IMO. If those two are really the players some think they are, then they should have no problem winning the job in TC against good competition.

I get that the FAs aren't absolutely optimal. Yes we might have to pay. Last year a new C, G, and QB and we are in the playoffs. This year we have a decent QB, an upgrade to the LBers, and another DT on a stacked line. We have lost no one but Langford. Why piss that away? Makes no sense to me.

Unless Barksdale and Wiz have just flat said no, then nothing we can do.

 

[Alan]

iced looking at only one of several possible reasons:
Pigeon holing yourself into a position is why we got players like donald and quinn

That might have been why those players fell to us but it's more likely that other reasons were responsible.

Quinn had not only missed a year of college play, he missed it because he'd had brain surgery. Kind of a huge red flag there eh?

Donald's physique doesn't fit the prototypical DT. Another big red flag. Plus, he only "fell" to #10.

Facts can be massaged to fit lots of theories but that doesn't make the theory a fact. While your theory might have some validity, those aren't examples I'd use to support it. My own view on this is that painting yourself into a corner can never be good in any endeavor but ignoring your needs to pick that hypothetical BPA you're salivating over often leads to buyers remorse. All draft strategies should be flexible and not dogmatic.

 

[Memento]

That might have been why those players fell to us but it's more likely that other reasons were responsible.

Quinn had not only missed a year of college play, he missed it because he'd had brain surgery. Kind of a huge red flag there eh?

Donald's physique doesn't fit the prototypical DT. Another big red flag. Plus, he only "fell" to #10.

Facts can be massaged to fit lots of theories but that doesn't make the theory a fact. While your theory might have some validity, those aren't examples I'd use to support it. My own view on this is that painting yourself into a corner can never be good in any endeavor but ignoring your needs to pick that hypothetical BPA you're salivating over often leads to buyers remorse. All draft strategies should be flexible and not dogmatic.

Um...Quinn missed a whole year of college play because of an agent. He, along with A.J. Green and Marcell Dareus, among others, were roped into the scheme by defensive tackle Marvin Austin. The benign brain tumor had surgery done in high school.

Donald fell to #13.

 

[Alan]

Thanks @Memento , good catch. Fortunately, that error doesn't affect my point but it does in fact add another red flag and reinforces it.

I shoul stop relying on my memory so often and refresh it with a nice tall glass of Google.

 

[jrry32]

While he may not have the speed & footwork of Peat, who is likely the only legitimate LT candidate early in the draft, again, I feel his skills far exceed what we have seen with Barksdale in pass pro, especially his lateral movement.

His athletic talents might exceed Barksdale but Barksdale is far more technically refined as a pass protector. That's no surprise considering he's been in the NFL for a few years but if you're expecting Flowers to come in and match Barksdale in pass pro or be better as a rookie...you're expecting too much imo.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Um...there's multiple ways to build an offensive line. I'm not a fan of any of the free agents that are left on the market. Maybe Stefan Wisniewski, but he's not shown any interest in the Rams. So we're going to build through the draft, whether you want to or not.

Robinson - Cann - Rhaney - Saffold - Peat is my choice for a line. Super Bowl? Yes, please.

Les??

 

[iced]

That might have been why those players fell to us but it's more likely that other reasons were responsible.

Quinn had not only missed a year of college play, he missed it because he'd had brain surgery. Kind of a huge red flag there eh?

No he was suspended for accepting gifts

Donald's physique doesn't fit the prototypical DT. Another big red flag. Plus, he only "fell" to #10.

there was no question he was the BPA on the board.. physique means little for how he made up for it

Facts can be massaged to fit lots of theories but that doesn't make the theory a fact. While your theory might have some validity, those aren't examples I'd use to support it. My own view on this is that painting yourself into a corner can never be good in any endeavor but ignoring your needs to pick that hypothetical BPA you're salivating over often leads to buyers remorse. All draft strategies should be flexible and not dogmatic.

Pretty sure Those teams I listed pigeon holed themselves into drafting a QB, passing up players like Quinn, Watt, Pouncey, Kerrigan, and Tyron Smith.


There's always a cross of Need and talent - but when its the difference between a great and a good prospect (or forcing QB's), take the stud

 

[Memento]

Les??

Sorry. I wish.

 

[Alan]

iced picking and choosing:
No he was suspended for accepting gifts

And that's not a red flag? Also, you're completely ignoring the fact that he'd had brain surgery. Wasn't that another huge red flag?

there was no question he was the BPA on the board.. physique means little for how he made up for it

No questions in your mind doesn't translate to no questions in many GM's minds. Just like my mind was a little fuzzy on the facts concerning why Quinn missed that year, I think you remain a little fuzzy about the facts around Donald. I googled this: "concerns about donald 2014 nfl draft" and the excerpt below is just the first article. There are many more and they all say the same thing. Try it yourself.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/3/27/5551780/aaron-donald-interview-nfl-draft-prospect-profile-2014
"There are very few segments of society in which Aaron Donald would not be considered a large man. But among the freakishly oversized human beings of the NFL, 6'1, 285 pounds is "diminutive" enough to raise criticism from draft experts.

Not that the criticism has been enough to really hamper his draft stock. Though relatively small for a pro defensive tackle, the Pittsburgh star is projected as a sure-fire first-rounder after putting up monster numbers at the NFL Combine. Donald was the talk of Indianapolis. His physics-defying 4.68 40 was by far the fastest among defensive tackles (for comparison, that's the same time Johnny Manziel posted) and his cone drill was fourth among all defensive linemen. He showed strength to go along with that athleticism, pumping out 35 reps of 225 pounds on the bench press, also tops among defensive tackles.

Despite all of that, there continues to be questions about his size and his ability hold up on the interior of NFL defensive lines."

Pretty sure Those teams I listed pigeon holed themselves into drafting a QB, passing up players like Quinn, Watt, Pouncey, Kerrigan, and Tyron Smith.

As I said in my original reply to you, that might be true but it's just a theory. A theory that isn't supported by any facts while my alternative is. Of course you still might be right but it remains a theory not supported by any facts and my alternative explanation is.

There's always a cross of Need and talent - but when its the difference between a great and a good prospect (or forcing QB's), take the stud

I understand that's your drafting strategy and I wasn't commenting on it pro or con, I was merely pointing out that your examples did nothing to support your theory. If you find some examples of a player being "passed over" solely due to teams drafting strictly for need and there aren't other reasons/red flags that provide an alternative reason then I'll be more likely to listen to it.

 

[iced]

And that's not a red flag? Also, you're completely ignoring the fact that he'd had brain surgery. Wasn't that another huge red flag?

For Quinn? The only red flag was medical - and once the results came back benign, then you're fine. They have doctors advising them of the same things, and I'm sure they were well informed.

No questions in your mind doesn't translate to no questions in many GM's minds. Just like my mind was a little fuzzy on the facts concerning why Quinn missed that year, I think you remain a little fuzzy about the facts around Donald. I googled this: "concerns about donald 2014 nfl draft" and the excerpt below is just the first article. There are many more and they all say the same thing. Try it yourself.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/3/27/5551780/aaron-donald-interview-nfl-draft-prospect-profile-2014
"There are very few segments of society in which Aaron Donald would not be considered a large man. But among the freakishly oversized human beings of the NFL, 6'1, 285 pounds is "diminutive" enough to raise criticism from draft experts.

Not that the criticism has been enough to really hamper his draft stock. Though relatively small for a pro defensive tackle, the Pittsburgh star is projected as a sure-fire first-rounder after putting up monster numbers at the NFL Combine. Donald was the talk of Indianapolis. His physics-defying 4.68 40 was by far the fastest among defensive tackles (for comparison, that's the same time Johnny Manziel posted) and his cone drill was fourth among all defensive linemen. He showed strength to go along with that athleticism, pumping out 35 reps of 225 pounds on the bench press, also tops among defensive tackles.

Despite all of that, there continues to be questions about his size and his ability hold up on the interior of NFL defensive lines."


As I said in my original reply to you, that might be true but it's just a theory. A theory that isn't supported by any facts while my alternative is. Of course you still might be right but it remains a theory not supported by any facts and my alternative explanation is.

Its could be a theory, could be GM's coaches throwing stuff out there to get him to drop, whatever the case.. the point is,I don't think there was any doubt for anyone that he was the BPA there, and everyone expected him to go earlier

And if physique were the determining factor Tavon Austin wouldn't have gone #8

I understand that's your drafting strategy and I wasn't commenting on it pro or con, I was merely pointing out that your examples did nothing to support your theory. If you find some examples of a player being "passed over" solely due to teams drafting strictly for need and there aren't other reasons/red flags that provide an alternative reason then I'll be more likely to listen to it.

I completely disagree. None of those QB's were rated that highly, nor expected to go that high (Especially gabbert and ponder). Players dropping for Injuries isn't the same as quinn.. same thing for character..

You put Jameis Winston next to Robert Quinn (pre-draft) and tell me which one has the shakier character

 

[Alan]

iced with these rejoinders:
For Quinn? The only red flag was medical - and once the results came back benign, then you're fine. They have doctors advising them of the same things, and I'm sure they were well informed.

I'm not sure "only " is the right word to use here and all tumors, benign or malignant are never considered to be gone, the condition is described as being in remission. Which of course means it could come back or a new one formed because the underlying condition (usually genetic in nature) is still there. While you might be satisfied that it's a no longer a red flag that's not necessarily what everyone else thinks.

Its could be a theory, could be GM's coaches throwing stuff out there to get him to drop, whatever the case.. the point is,I don't think there was any doubt for anyone that he was the BPA there, and everyone expected him to go earlier

And if physique were the determining factor Tavon Austin wouldn't have gone #8

Exactly, as most of us now know (although I always knew it to be true) he shouldn't have gone with the 8th pick. His diminutive stature being just one of the reasons.

I completely disagree. None of those QB's were rated that highly, nor expected to go that high (Especially gabbert and ponder). Players dropping for Injuries isn't the same as quinn.. same thing for character..

You put Jameis Winston next to Robert Quinn (pre-draft) and tell me which one has the shakier character

I'd like to answer this too but I have no clue what you're talking about here. What QBs? But I'll respond to the bolded stuff. I didn't say or imply that the reasons for dropping (red flags) were the same for Donald as for Quinn, I'm saying that there were red flags (of any nature) that might have caused him to drop. So like I said, give me an example of someone you feel that everyone "knew" should have gone earlier that had NO RED FLAGS OF ANY NATURE that you feel dropped because one or more GMs passed on to fill needs. Your examles of Quinn and Donald don't meet my criteria and thus I'm not buying your contention that they dropped because of a needs versus BPA scenario. I think they dropped because of the red flags.

You don't have to convince me of course but to do so you would need to provide better examples because I can't think of any myself. Except for 95% of all QBs drafted of course. Along with OGs, OTs, Cs, Ss, Kickers, LSs and many other players who are drafted higher or lower than a strict BPA draft strategy would require.

 

[iced]

I'm not sure "only " is the right word to use here and all tumors, benign or malignant are never considered to be gone, the condition is described as being in remission. Which of course means it could come back or a new one formed because the underlying condition (usually genetic in nature) is still there. While you might be satisfied that it's a no longer a red flag that's not necessarily what everyone else thinks.

Apparently thats what the Team doctor thought - Devaney talked about it after the draft, saying they felt "the medical checked out" IIRC

Exactly, as most of us now know (although I always knew it to be true) he shouldn't have gone with the 8th pick. His diminutive stature being just one of the reasons.

He would have gone 9th to the Jets, so again height doesn't always matter..sproles, harvin, and plenty of other smaller guys that have had success...

I believe stature/physique inflates draft status vs hurting status, especially in those guys cases

I'd like to answer this too but I have no clue what you're talking about here. What QBs?

Locker at 8,Gabbert at 10, Ponder at 12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NFL_draft

But I'll respond to the bolded stuff. I didn't say or imply that the reasons for dropping (red flags) were the same for Donald as for Quinn, I'm saying that there were red flags (of any nature) that might have caused him to drop. So like I said, give me an example of someone you feel that everyone "knew" should have gone earlier that had NO RED FLAGS OF ANY NATURE that you feel dropped because one or more GMs passed on to fill needs. Your examles of Quinn and Donald don't meet my criteria and thus I'm not buying your contention that they dropped because of a needs versus BPA scenario. I think they dropped because of the red flags.

Thats easy - Aaron Rodgers is the most obvious example off the top of my head... Adrian Peterson falling to 7 (I think every Ram fan collectively sighed a relief when Arizona passed on him at 5)... Haloti Gnata falling to 12 (I was pissed when we traded back with the Broncos when they took Cutler, thought we'd take gnata there)...

just some ones i remember

 

[Merlin]

If they get Scherff at 10 they are in business. He might not have prototypical length and feet but he can play RT. From there they can take an OG and a project/raw OT type and not sweat it.

If he is off the board I assume they move down and get an extra pick and also ensure they get more value with their OT selection.

But again I think Scherff is their guy. Perfect fit for this team and if they get him he will be an instant impact player for them.

This OL has 2 key pieces. One more key piece and it will be an above average line IMO.

 

[Alan]

iced with more thoughts:
Apparently thats what the Team doctor thought - Devaney talked about it after the draft, saying they felt "the medical checked out" IIRC

Thank Bhudda eh?

He would have gone 9th to the Jets, so again height doesn't always matter..sproles, harvin, and plenty of other smaller guys that have had success...

I believe stature/physique inflates draft status vs hurting status, especially in those guys cases

Actually, all that means is that his diminutive stature wasn't a drawback to the Rams or the Jets. We're both just in speculation mode here but I'd say that not only does it matter, it has kept many players from even getting to the draft. Using other small stature successes doesn't give your view any validity. Nor dies it take away any validity. There are outliers in every facet of the NFL. That's like saying you don't need to draft a QB until the 6th round because of Tom Brady's success. If the a large percentage of smurfs went on to have long successful careers in the NFL then I'd buy what you're selling. That isn't the case though.

Locker at 8,Gabbert at 10, Ponder at 12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NFL_draft

Well now I know which QBs you were talking about but I'm not sure why. I asked you to name a player who was passed over by a team that drafted for need instead of taking that, presumably, BPA player. You named three players that were not BPAs and were picked because of need. Unless you're saying that every player in the top 12 in that draft that weren't drafted by the teams that drafted those QBs are the examples. While that's true, we both know that QBs are are different from other players because they are so vital to success. Again, I wouldn't ever consider using wild cards like QBs as an example to prove your point.

Thats easy - Aaron Rodgers is the most obvious example off the top of my head... Adrian Peterson falling to 7 (I think every Ram fan collectively sighed a relief when Arizona passed on him at 5)... Haloti Gnata falling to 12 (I was pissed when we traded back with the Broncos when they took Cutler, thought we'd take gnata there)...

Rodgers, as I remember it, was not considered a sure fire can't miss QB. Plus, he's a QB so he doesn't count (see the paragraph above). Had you used Adrian Peterson and Haloti Ngata as your examples to prove your point, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Much much better examples. While it doesn't prove your point (tiny tiny sample size), it does point out one of the downsides of backing yourself into a corner and thus forcing you to draft for need. But I agreed with that part of your post from the beginning.

 

[iced]

Thank Bhudda eh?
That's like saying you don't need to draft a QB until the 6th round because of Tom Brady's success. If the a large percentage of smurfs went on to have long successful careers in the NFL then I'd buy what you're selling. That isn't the case though.

lol that's not even the same ball park... thats applying a one size fits all, which is exactly the opposite of what i'm saying

Well now I know which QBs you were talking about but I'm not sure why. I asked you to name a player who was passed over by a team that drafted for need instead of taking that, presumably, BPA player. You named three players that were not BPAs and were picked because of need.

You asked what qb's I was talking about, and this was all my whole point.

Unless you're saying that every player in the top 12 in that draft that weren't drafted by the teams that drafted those QBs are the examples. While that's true, we both know that QBs are are different from other players because they are so vital to success. Again, I wouldn't ever consider using wild cards like QBs as an example to prove your point.

No I was saying those guys were over drafted, way before they should have gone... lol think the announcers even called the ponder pick a reach the minute they announced it

Rodgers, as I remember it, was not considered a sure fire can't miss QB. Plus, he's a QB so he doesn't count (see the paragraph above). Had you used Adrian Peterson and Haloti Ngata as your examples to prove your point, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Much much better examples. While it doesn't prove your point (tiny tiny sample size), it does point out one of the downsides of backing yourself into a corner and thus forcing you to draft for need. But I agreed with that part of your post from the beginning.

You wanted sure fire misprospects - guys that were so obviously screaming with talent and clear cut better than those around them at the time. That's what I was going for.

Alex smith and a host of other players went before rodgers (24th), so yea he should be included.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_NFL_draft

 

[Memphis Ram]

If they get Scherff at 10 they are in business. He might not have prototypical length and feet but he can play RT. rom

If that's the case, they might as well move Saffold back out to RT.

 

[Merlin]

If that's the case, they might as well move Saffold back out to RT.

It's the case with most RTs in the NFL. Truth is those Pace-like guys that have it all are ultra rare. Take Scherff there at 10 and don't look back. Get a nice OG for the left side in round 2 or 3. Rams would have a playoff OL with, say, Scherff and Tomlinson brought in.

 

[Memento]

It's the case with most RTs in the NFL. Truth is those Pace-like guys that have it all are ultra rare. Take Scherff there at 10 and don't look back. Get a nice OG for the left side in round 2 or 3. Rams would have a playoff OL with, say, Scherff and Tomlinson brought in.

The Rams would have a dead quarterback with Scherff or Flowers at right tackle. Their pass-protection is atrocious, and I don't see it improving. Ever.

 

[Demand n 1]

Incredible intercourse! I am learning more from this forum than years of talking heads and internet pundits. How the heck did a question on drafting O linemen get to so much dialogue on Ponder and Rogers and Haloti Gnata. This is exactly what makes fanatics out of fans.
A good sharp saw will cut both ways -on the push and on the pull.

 

[Memphis Ram]

It's the case with most RTs in the NFL. Truth is those Pace-like guys that have it all are ultra rare. Take Scherff there at 10 and don't look back. Get a nice OG for the left side in round 2 or 3. Rams would have a playoff OL with, say, Scherff and Tomlinson brought in.

But teams don't select non prototypes guys to play OT with top ten selections. And this team just moved another non prototype OT to Guard in Saffold. Thus, again with your plan, they might as well move Saffold back out to RT. In fact, he might be a better OT than anyone in this year's draft class fans are calling for the Rams to spend a 1st round pick on.