“Our $6 billion stadium” the story.

[CGI_Ram]

Please tell me there aren't folks who think the St Louis lawsuit is without merit?

The best thing for the Rams in the long term was to be in LA, but the city of St Louis was absolutely fucking screwed and if I was a taxpayer in that city I'd be wanting my officials to pursue the fuck out of any legal action they can.

Sorry for going off topic, it was just skirted around in the article. But St Louis is going to wipe the floor with the NFL in their lawsuit.

Being from the Midwest, a lot of people there agree with you.

But, as a moderator, let’s not get into the “city debate”. Not directed at you @ScotsRam, just general guidance to this discussion.

 

[ScotsRam]

Being from the Midwest, a lot of people there agree with you.

But, as a moderator, let’s not get into the city debate. Not directed at you @ScotsRam, just general guidance to this discussion.

Yeah, noted. Sorry. Didn't mean to be a fans v fans thing - just an observation.

 

[Dxmissile]

It's the only "deal" Spanos could make. He's now in debt BIG time and most likely will be until he's buried. He's mortgaged everything to try and pay the relocation fee. He doesn't have that kind of money... and his measly 15% revenue stream is not going to add up to 550 million with a quickness.

This "deal" he has is not the kind of deal a real NFL owner would want to be a part of. He's outclassed just like that woman who used to "own" our beloved Rams. He has no business being an NFL owner... he never could afford it, and this Amazing (lol) deal he's stuck with just sealed his fate. He will have to sell the franchise in order to have any type of wealth left for his family just to get out from under the massive relocation fee.

Sweet deal.

That 15percent is just revenue from the stadium which is double because it’s two teams there so it might as well be 30. But teams don’t make their money from stadium revenue they make it by the massive tv deals they sign. And each owner gets a big pay day from those.
If I remember correctly they give him 10 years to pay that relocation fee. So the only thing Spanos is out is 56 million a year for 10 years while Kroenke is out the same plus the overages on the stadium

 

[CGI_Ram]

Yeah, noted. Sorry. Didn't mean to be a fans v fans thing - just an observation.

No worries. “These topics” are always difficult to discuss. This thread has gone very well.

 

[Dxmissile]

And it always struck me as odd that the city wanted to make the biggest land owner and property developer in the country a tenant instead of allowing him to build his own thing. It just never made any sense.

Well because like Dean he didn’t want to spend his own money to do that he wanted public money and when the city financed it they wanted to make sure that relocation thoughts or move could never happen again. If Kroenke would have financed the stadium 100 percent then he could have got whatever he wanted but the simple fact is he was on his way out when he exercised his rights of first refusal to Shan Khan who came out publicly and stated he wouldn’t move the Rams

 

[Dxmissile]

LOL at anyone thinking a stadium will cost $5-6 billion.

.

But it is though. How do it go from 1.8 to 2.6 to over 5 billion. Unless you think the retail places and the nfl network building is gonna cost more than the stadium

 

[Dxmissile]

https://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/news/2018/05/16/rams-stadium-costs-top-4-billion.html

It is unprecedented,” one banker said of the investment. By comparison, after debt, the top equity infusions into stadiums from NFL team owners, such as the Cowboys’ Jerry Jones and Falcons’ Arthur Blank, have topped out at a few hundred million dollars. Kroenke also has agreed to a completion guarantee, the finance sources said, meaning he covers cost overruns and is responsible for the debt if the project does not open on time.
The $4.25 billion cost for the 298-acre site just four miles from LAX airport more than doubles the most expensive stadium ever built in the U.S., the $1.7 billion spent on MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. The cost also includes the value of a 6,000-seat amphitheater but not the planned retail and commercial development, as well as the building of a new NFL Network home that is expected to drive the total cost of the project close to $5 billion if not more, the finance sources said.

 

[Selassie I]

That 15percent is just revenue from the stadium which is double because it’s two teams there so it might as well be 30. But teams don’t make their money from stadium revenue they make it by the massive tv deals they sign. And each owner gets a big pay day from those.
If I remember correctly they give him 10 years to pay that relocation fee. So the only thing Spanos is out is 56 million a year for 10 years while Kroenke is out the same plus the overages on the stadium

Or... you could say that Stan is getting 85% of Spanos' revenue stream. That is actually a better description of this deal.

 

[coconut]

And it always struck me as odd that the city wanted to make the biggest land owner and property developer in the country a tenant instead of allowing him to build his own thing. It just never made any sense.

Because Kroenke didn't want to spend his money on a stadium in St. Louis. Besides that he never wanted to keep the Rams in St. Louis.

 

[fearsomefour]

They’re only stating what the total project will be like but there have never been any official estimate of what the retail cost will be for the other part. The stadium cost went from 1.8 billion to over 5 billion unless you think the 1.8 billion was going to a new world class stadium and the surrounding development.
I can also tell you that these things are done in stages you have to build the stadium first and then build everything else there is no way that the surrounding development cost 4 billion dollars or even 2 billion for that matter.

that was one thing that always struck me as odd. He left to build his 1.8 billion dollar stadium when the city of stlouis was willing to build him a 1.3 billion dollar stadium. I think that’s why Kroenke is so upset with dead because his cost keep rising to build his stadium andDean don’t have to do anything to help offset that cost.

Value.
Being a tenant in St Louis would give the team new digs but wouldn’t do much for value. The was valued near the bottom of the league. The move and project moves the value of the team up toward to tops in the league.
Also, there is the value of the associated project on the land. It makes sense.
As fans we might be very happy with owning a small market team with a comparably low value. Most of these guys don’t think like that.

 

[CGI_Ram]

As fans we might be very happy with owning a small market team with a comparably low value. Most of these guys don’t think like that.

I have a hard time siding with the market size argument except when it pertains to value of the franchise and land.

RANK	DESIGNATED MARKET AREA (DMA)	TV HOMES	% OF U.S.
1	New York	7,100,300	6.441
2	Los Angeles	5,276,600	4.786
3	Chicago	3,251,370	2.949
4	Philadelphia	2,816,850	2.555
5	Dallas-Ft. Worth	2,622,070	2.378
6	Washington, DC (Hagrstwn)	2,482,480	2.252
7	Houston	2,423,360	2.198
8	San Francisco-Oak-San Jose	2,414,470	2.19
9	Boston (Manchester)	2,364,870	2.145
10	Atlanta	2,341,390	2.124
11	Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota)	1,875,420	1.701
12	Phoenix (Prescott)	1,864,420	1.691
13	Seattle-Tacoma	1,854,810	1.682
14	Detroit	1,777,240	1.612
15	Minneapolis-St. Paul	1,713,310	1.554
16	Miami-Ft. Lauderdale	1,697,840	1.54
17	Denver	1,585,270	1.438
18	Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn	1,565,890	1.42
19	Cleveland-Akron (Canton)	1,399,470	1.269
20	Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto	1,357,690	1.232
21	St. Louis	1,164,400	1.056
22	Portland, OR	1,141,770	1.036
23	Charlotte	1,129,900	1.025
24	Pittsburgh	1,108,780	1.006
25	Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle)	1,108,710	1.006
26	Baltimore	1,084,180	0.983
27	Nashville	1,021,780	0.927
28	Indianapolis	999,790	0.907
29	San Diego	987,760	0.896
30	Salt Lake City	935,810	0.849
31	San Antonio	923,990	0.838
32	Kansas City	909,420	0.825
33	Hartford & New Haven	897,870	0.814
34	Columbus, OH	889,600	0.807
35	Cincinnati	850,030	0.771
36	Milwaukee	848,420	0.77
37	West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce	829,880	0.753
38	Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And	805,920	0.731
39	Las Vegas	766,500	0.695
40	Austin	751,650	0.682
41	Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York	705,190	0.64
42	Jacksonville	681,330	0.618
43	Birmingham (Ann and Tusc)	679,550	0.616
44	Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws	678,210	0.615
45	Oklahoma City	676,720	0.614
46	Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem	675,130	0.612
47	Albuquerque-Santa Fe	650,890	0.59
48	Louisville	647,190	0.587
49	Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-B.Crk	639,410	0.58
50	New Orleans	624,020	0.566

 

[fearsomefour]

I have a hard time siding with the market size argument except when it pertains to value of the franchise and land.

RANK	DESIGNATED MARKET AREA (DMA)	TV HOMES	% OF U.S.
1	New York	7,100,300	6.441
2	Los Angeles	5,276,600	4.786
3	Chicago	3,251,370	2.949
4	Philadelphia	2,816,850	2.555
5	Dallas-Ft. Worth	2,622,070	2.378
6	Washington, DC (Hagrstwn)	2,482,480	2.252
7	Houston	2,423,360	2.198
8	San Francisco-Oak-San Jose	2,414,470	2.19
9	Boston (Manchester)	2,364,870	2.145
10	Atlanta	2,341,390	2.124
11	Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota)	1,875,420	1.701
12	Phoenix (Prescott)	1,864,420	1.691
13	Seattle-Tacoma	1,854,810	1.682
14	Detroit	1,777,240	1.612
15	Minneapolis-St. Paul	1,713,310	1.554
16	Miami-Ft. Lauderdale	1,697,840	1.54
17	Denver	1,585,270	1.438
18	Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn	1,565,890	1.42
19	Cleveland-Akron (Canton)	1,399,470	1.269
20	Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto	1,357,690	1.232
21	St. Louis	1,164,400	1.056
22	Portland, OR	1,141,770	1.036
23	Charlotte	1,129,900	1.025
24	Pittsburgh	1,108,780	1.006
25	Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle)	1,108,710	1.006
26	Baltimore	1,084,180	0.983
27	Nashville	1,021,780	0.927
28	Indianapolis	999,790	0.907
29	San Diego	987,760	0.896
30	Salt Lake City	935,810	0.849
31	San Antonio	923,990	0.838
32	Kansas City	909,420	0.825
33	Hartford & New Haven	897,870	0.814
34	Columbus, OH	889,600	0.807
35	Cincinnati	850,030	0.771
36	Milwaukee	848,420	0.77
37	West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce	829,880	0.753
38	Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And	805,920	0.731
39	Las Vegas	766,500	0.695
40	Austin	751,650	0.682
41	Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York	705,190	0.64
42	Jacksonville	681,330	0.618
43	Birmingham (Ann and Tusc)	679,550	0.616
44	Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws	678,210	0.615
45	Oklahoma City	676,720	0.614
46	Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem	675,130	0.612
47	Albuquerque-Santa Fe	650,890	0.59
48	Louisville	647,190	0.587
49	Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-B.Crk	639,410	0.58
50	New Orleans	624,020	0.566

Right, that’s what matters to the NFL certainly.
Although they have made their product so available it is less needed to have a team in big markets and much less desirable to actually go to games.
But, in terms of value, it holds water.

 

[Dxmissile]

Or... you could say that Stan is getting 85% of Spanos' revenue stream. That is actually a better description of this deal.

Yeah no doubt but Stan didn’t want to give him anything and by all rights he shouldn’t have but Jerry and the league gave that to Dean

 

[Dxmissile]

Value.
Being a tenant in St Louis would give the team new digs but wouldn’t do much for value. The was valued near the bottom of the league. The move and project moves the value of the team up toward to tops in the league.
Also, there is the value of the associated project on the land. It makes sense.
As fans we might be very happy with owning a small market team with a comparably low value. Most of these guys don’t think like that.

I always understood the business side of the move that’s a no brainer. The franchises worth went up about a billion more than it would have with the new stadium in StL

 

[Dxmissile]

Just for the record I’m really proud of this discussion right now. A lot of info is being shared and most of all it has been very civil

 

[OldSchool]

Well because like Dean he didn’t want to spend his own money to do that he wanted public money and when the city financed it they wanted to make sure that relocation thoughts or move could never happen again. If Kroenke would have financed the stadium 100 percent then he could have got whatever he wanted but the simple fact is he was on his way out when he exercised his rights of first refusal to Shan Khan who came out publicly and stated he wouldn’t move the Rams

Because Kroenke didn't want to spend his money on a stadium in St. Louis. Besides that he never wanted to keep the Rams in St. Louis.

Sorry I didn't want to get involved in more of the LA vs StL debate but you guys aren't getting the point. Stan absolutely wanted to spend his money. The StL proposal was flawed because they wanted to own the stadium and give him no input. Regardless of where it's being built this is completely ignoring who you want to do business with and you're not putting your best offer forward. You can give a guy like Stan all you want and work with him however you want but if at the end of the day it's your toy and not his you aren't going to end up working with him.

That's all I'm trying to say, he's a property owner not a renter. With the proposal StL gave him they never had a chance it made his decision easy.

 

[ozarkram]

Whats done is done. Money will change hands. Feathers will be smoothed by the grease. And the rich will get richer. It is the way of things.

 

[Dxmissile]

Sorry I didn't want to get involved in more of the LA vs StL debate but you guys aren't getting the point. Stan absolutely wanted to spend his money. The StL proposal was flawed because they wanted to own the stadium and give him no input. Regardless of where it's being built this is completely ignoring who you want to do business with and you're not putting your best offer forward. You can give a guy like Stan all you want and work with him however you want but if at the end of the day it's your toy and not his you aren't going to end up working with him.

That's all I'm trying to say, he's a property owner not a renter. With the proposal StL gave him they never had a chance it made his decision easy.

The point is if he wanted to be a owner and not a tenant then do it with your own money like he did with LA. They gave him the land. The city bought the land and was willing to give him ownership of the land even with them financing the entire cost of the stadium. I don’t see how people can be upset with Dean but thelaud Stan when they basically did the same exact thing.
And do you really believe Stan was staying in StL there was absolutely nothing that the city could do to change his mind because he was already spending millions of dollars in LA.
Tell me if you was spending a Billion plus dollars on a stadium not to mention buying the land would you just give all that up without any concession. That sets a bad precedent very bad.

the new MLS team that’s coming to StL the ownership group paid for it all with their own money they are Owners and not tenants because THEY paid for it. Every owner in the league that got their stadium financed through public money is a tenant

 

[Dxmissile]

Sorry I didn't want to get involved in more of the LA vs StL debate but you guys aren't getting the point. Stan absolutely wanted to spend his money. The StL proposal was flawed because they wanted to own the stadium and give him no input. Regardless of where it's being built this is completely ignoring who you want to do business with and you're not putting your best offer forward. You can give a guy like Stan all you want and work with him however you want but if at the end of the day it's your toy and not his you aren't going to end up working with him.

That's all I'm trying to say, he's a property owner not a renter. With the proposal StL gave him they never had a chance it made his decision easy.

Ohh and Stan absolutely didn’t want to spend his own money he turned down numerous proposals because He DIDNT want to spend more money. And his deal with StL was a sweetheart deal didn’t have to pay for maintenance got all concessions from the games and from all the other events that was held at the dome his practice facility was 1 dollar a year. His rent to the city was 20k a year. The guy was making money on top of money. I don’t care if I was a tenant only paying 20k a year for a billion dollar stadium is well worth it

 

[den-the-coach]

the new MLS team that’s coming to StL the ownership group paid for it all with their own money they are Owners and not tenants because THEY paid for it. Every owner in the league that got their stadium financed through public money is a tenant

And that's great, however, the agreement was for St. Louis to ensure they had an upper echelon facility in the NFL, that was the agreement and Stan spoke about that the day they announced the move. Even with the new stadium proposal, it did not put St. Louis in the top 5 stadiums, which was factored in to be competitive, now we can debate that topic, but if they had made those improvements to the Convention Center, it would have been in that top percentile.

In the end, Stan wanted to move as like John Shaw in the 90's that oversaw expansion and realized the opportunity, ESK oversaw the Los Angeles committee and understood what it would take to have a football team in Los Angeles and he felt he was the guy to get it done.

As to the Chargers, I believe Mexico City is in their future. Logistics not an issue and a fan base like no other, however, that's down the road IMHO.