Big Ben and Brady

[moklerman]

Yeah Moklerman and it was Cutler who was the guy that told Martz to go freak himself after he called another 5 wide empty backfield seven step drop that got him beaten to a pulp.

There are a couple of things we know about Martz. One of them is people don't like working with him. Why bring a guy like that into the mix in STL. It isn't worth it.

C'mon, you really want to use Cutler as a barometer? Who hasn't he had an argument with?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Not to be dismissive of the OP, but you are comparing Austin Davis to QBs with 5 SB wins and what, 7-8 SB appearances between them? While great QBs can struggle without talent, its apples and oranges to the Rams situation.

What? I don't think I was comparing Austin Davis to Brady and Roethlisberger. I was comparing what fixing their Oline did for them. They both looked bad in their first few games. There was even talk of starting Garapolo over Brady at one point. If Austin, or Bradford, or Hill had a good pocket to throw from and some time they would be much improved, but the Rams have had struggles with their line since before Linehan got there. WHEN ARE THEY FINALLY GOING TO FIX IT?

The line has needed fixed for far too long. FIX THE LINE! That was what the OP was about.

 

[LesBaker]

C'mon, you really want to use Cutler as a barometer? Who hasn't he had an argument with?

I don't know, I'm using it as an example of why teams are afraid of hiring Martz. He has trouble getting along with people and he gets expensive QB's crushed, two really big reasons why he has been shown the door so often.

Anyone who wants to run the plays he has designed can see the playbooks, copies are available. So having him on the staff would add nothing but a huge ego that butts heads with people. How does that benefit a team?

 

[WvuIN02]

What? I don't think I was comparing Austin Davis to Brady and Roethlisberger. I was comparing what fixing their Oline did for them. They both looked bad in their first few games. There was even talk of starting Garapolo over Brady at one point. If Austin, or Bradford, or Hill had a good pocket to throw from and some time they would be much improved, but the Rams have had struggles with their line since before Linehan got there. WHEN ARE THEY FINALLY GOING TO FIX IT?

The line has needed fixed for far too long. FIX THE LINE! That was what the OP was about.

My point was, that those teams have franchise QBs which I think most (including myself) would argue needs fixed before any OL issues if one is there. Ben Roethlisberger won TWO SBs with bad OL play.

 

[moklerman]

I don't know, I'm using it as an example of why teams are afraid of hiring Martz. He has trouble getting along with people and he gets expensive QB's crushed, two really big reasons why he has been shown the door so often.

Anyone who wants to run the plays he has designed can see the playbooks, copies are available. So having him on the staff would add nothing but a huge ego that butts heads with people. How does that benefit a team?

I don't think it's quite that simple. If that were the case, one could just take Bill Walsh's 49ers playbook and have a dynasty.

If we're going by what former players of his say, there's a lot of praise out there too.

 

[blackbart]

My point was, that those teams have franchise QBs which I think most (including myself) would argue needs fixed before any OL issues if one is there. Ben Roethlisberger won TWO SBs with bad OL play.

If the line had been fixed we already had our franchise QB. Letting him play behind J Long before Long was ready to be back is what got Sam knocked out again. I'm with Elm

FIX THE OLINE!!!!!

 

[Robocop]

I said it before the season started that the Oline was in way more trouble than the secondary but even the more educated fans here disagreed. guess it's a clear focus now. gotta have the same depth in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

A number of years ago I would've said no to Martz cus we never had the talent anyways but we sure as hell do now so yes. hell yes. don't let the door hit you on the way out Schotty

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

My point was, that those teams have franchise QBs which I think most (including myself) would argue needs fixed before any OL issues if one is there. Ben Roethlisberger won TWO SBs with bad OL play.

I understand what you were saying. But it doesn't matter if the QB is good or great. A good QB behind a terrible line will not play to his potential. Marc Bulger is a good example. But an okay QB just like any QB will play better behind a very good Oline. Maybe Davis is good enough if he has more time. Flacco was not great until his line was playing great.

The SBs that Ben won were behind a very good run blocking Oline and those teams relied on the run to win.

I am not saying Davis is as good as Ben either, just that the Rams OLine sucks, and I am tired of it.

 

[Amitar]

They tried to trade up for Martin. Scott Wells seemed like a good signing at the time. And with Saffold, it seemed reasonable that exclusively being a guard may allow him to cut down on injuries. Jake Long had the pedigree to suggest he may be good again. Bottom line, they tried.

They signed two FA with injury history, drafted another injured OL, and moved one of their own to another position to avoid injury. How about we concentrate this draft on the OL. Unfortunately the Rams traded their 4 & 6 picks so moving up may not even be an option. Big mistake, Big.

 

[Prime Time]

They both were asked how Big Ben turned it all around.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/11/05/nfl-week-10-deep-dive-man-coverage-ben-roethlisberger/

Joe Robbins/Getty Images
Deep Dive
Wed Nov. 5, 2014
Man Coverage in the NFL, and How Roethlisberger Keeps Beating It
Plus a look at how Broncos tight end Julius Thomas will be used against the Raiders, what makes the Bengals’ D so smart, and more film study notes
By Andy Benoit

There are only three games between teams with winning records this week, and no one could have predicted these matchups before the season began: Cleveland at Cincinnati (on Thursday), Kansas City at Buffalo and Miami at Detroit. The common thread between these six teams? They’ve all been stellar in coverage. The common thread there? Each has the ability to play man-to-man.

Cleveland: Mike Pettine’s scheme relies on great man coverage. Joe Haden isn’t having his best season, but he’s still able to match up with No. 1 receivers. Rookie Justin Gilbert has been a disappointment thus far in nickel, but No. 2 corner Buster Skrine has maintained the improvements he made last season. Most importantly, the safeties have flourished. Free-agent pickup Donte Whitner has provided the veteran stability needed for running Pettine’s multifaceted third-level exchange concepts, while Tashaun Gipson leads the league with six interceptions.

Cincinnati: It’s amazing how the Bengals are so viable on the back end every year. Recently they used first-round picks on cornerbacks Dre Kirkpatrick and Darqueze Dennard, neither of whom has made a meaningful contribution. But it hasn’t mattered because Cincy’s veterans—31-year-old Adam Jones, 29-year-old Leon Hall, who is coming off his second Achilles injury and 36-year-old Terence Newman (36!)—have been terrific in the coverage rotations that coordinator Paul Guenther’s disguise tactics demand.

It helps that they all play in the same spots week in and week out (Jones outside on the right, Hall in the slot, and Newman outside on the left). And while this D’s foundation is based more on matchup zones, all three corners have the ability to play man (even press-man) when needed.

Kansas City: The Chiefs’ defense isn’t the same following the offseason release of cornerback Brandon Flowers (his replacement, Marcus Cooper, has been wildly up and down on the outside). An ankle injury also kept Pro Bowl safety Eric Berry out for most of the season’s first half (he returned against the Jets last Sunday). But others have stepped up, allowing coordinator Bob Sutton to stay closer than expected to his core man-based scheme. Most notable has been Husain Abdullah, who took over many of Berry’s assignments as a box safety in sub-packages, including blitzing and covering tight ends. Even with Berry back, expect Abdullah to keep playing a prominent role.

Buffalo: Quietly, the Bills are putting one of the NFL’s best secondaries out on the field. New defensive coordinator Jim Schwartz has always been a zone-based schemer, but this season he’s employed frequent man coverage principles (if we’re to include Quarters coverage, a four-man zone laced with downfield man-to-man responsibilities). That’s just simple recognition of his personnel. Outside, the physical and subtly lanky Stephon Gilmore is on the verge of becoming elite (he must stay healthy). Leodis McKelvin continues to thrive against the deep ball and use his speed for playmaking purposes.

Earlier in the year, Corey Graham was sensational filling in as a starter. He’s since taken somewhat of a back seat (though lately Schwartz has played the savvy free-agent pickup at safety in certain dime packages), allowing the slot to still be filled by Nickell Robey, who has quickly blossomed into one of the league’s best at his position. Most teams use stifling man coverage as an opportunity to send extra rushers after the quarterback; the Bills often rely on it to shut down the passing game behind a four-man rush. While their pass rush is improved, it’s the play of the secondary that’s propagated many of Buffalo’s AFC-leading 28 sacks.

Miami: Defensive coordinator Kevin Coyle came over three years ago from Cincinnati and brought with him many of the 4-3 pressure principles he learned under then-Bengals D coordinator Mike Zimmer. Like the Bengals, the Dolphins use a lot of matchup zone concepts. That means many of their plays become man-to-man later in the down.

Those plays have been more and more successful in recent weeks, as safety Reshad Jones, now more than a month back from his four-game suspension to start the year, has been rangy and alert, while cornerback Brent Grimes has played at an All-Pro level, especially against outside vertical routes. And Cortland Finnegan, presumed to be washed up after a disastrous 2013 season in St. Louis, has looked closer (though granted still not all the way there) to his Tennessee Titans form.

Detroit: Saving the best (or at least the most interesting) for last: the Lions, traditionally as vanilla a zone D as you’ll find, have become much more diverse in their coverages under new coordinator Teryl Austin. While still far from being a pure man-based defense, they’ve installed many more man-to-man concepts and seen improvements in individual performances across the board. Most marked is that of Darius Slay, who is rebounding from an awful rookie season.

Because of his work as a man defender, Slay, even with some recent minor hiccups, has been one of the league’s most effective outside corners. Opposite him, 34-year-old Rashean Mathis, a career zone defender who came from Jacksonville, has been surprisingly stellar going mano-a-mano. And something the Lions have had a lot of success with out of man concepts is using safety Glover Quin as a robber/lurker.

JUMPING OUT ON FILM
Generally, when a quarterback has a two-game stretch in which he completes 75.6% of his passes and throws for 862 yards, 12 touchdowns and zero interceptions, weird things happen. Such as blown coverages, defenders falling down or screen passes that a running back catches two yards downfield and then runs another 85 to end zone. But these anomalies haven’t happened with Ben Roethlisberger. His film looks every bit as good as his numbers, and there’s a distinct reason why.

Roethlisberger has been throwing with near-perfect anticipation, not just against zone coverage (where we tend to think of anticipation passing) but also man-to-man (where the greats truly thrive). His timing and rhythm have been exquisite. Best of all, he hasn’t gotten away from being Big Ben, either. There have been a handful of remarkable play extensions and improvisations from the 11th-year veteran. But mostly there’s just been smart, fundamentally sharp quarterbacking.

This didn’t use to be the case, but Roethlisberger’s game has stabilized—matured, if you will—in recent years. If it continues this way, a career that we thought might become diminished in Roethlisberger’s early- to mid-30s (just like Steve McNair, another “playmaking QB” who took a lot of hits) may flourish into his late 30s (just like Peyton Manning, perhaps the finest anticipation passer in league history).

SMART WATCHING FOR WEEK 10
It’s become very interesting to see each week how defenses treat tight end Julius Thomas. More and more he’s being viewed as a catalyst for Denver’s offensive designs. Coordinator Adam Gase knows this and loves to dictate matchups by aligning Thomas in an outside receiver spot, even as an “X-iso” on the opposite side of trips receivers. How the Raiders treat Thomas on Sunday will largely dictate what the Broncos do with their passing designs.

If Thomas is defended with safeties or especially linebackers, he’ll stay inside and be a focal point. If a cornerback covers him, he’ll be more of a decoy (except in the red zone, where his jump-ball abilities come into play). And then there’s the wild card: the possibility of the Raiders putting a cornerback on Thomas even when he’s in his natural tight end spot on the line of scrimmage. The Patriots did this last week with Brandon Browner and had a lot of success.

IMPRESSIVE COACHING
The Bengals have continued to flourish as a blitzing defense under new coordinator Paul Guenther, who was promoted from linebackers coach after Mike Zimmer left to be the head coach in Minnesota. Guenther, who was integral in the construction of many blitz packages under Zimmer, is every bit as aggressive (perhaps even more so) than his predecessor.

This week they’re facing a Browns team that likes to move the pocket. Expect to see the Browns move the pocket even more than normal on Thursday night. Because as the play below will show, the Bengals’ pressure packages can be difficult to drop back against.

PODCAST SPOTLIGHT
Last week on the podcast we had Raiders rookie Khalil Mack, who, despite paltry numbers, is having one of the best rookie seasons in recent memory. I asked Mack about various aspects of his transition from the University of Buffalo to the NFL. He downplayed all of them, except for one: “The QB’s,” he said (multiple times). “They get the ball out so quickly.”

10 FILM STUDY QUICK-HITTERS
1) When Peyton Manning is forced to throw off-schedule, his lack of raw arm strength can become somewhat of an issue.

2) One of many major concerns for Oakland heading into this week’s game against Denver: right tackle Menelik Watson and his still unrefined technique against Von Miller. Don’t be surprised if Khalif Barnes once again gets some of Watson’s snaps.

3) The left side of Baltimore’s O-line will not continue to struggle with stunts as much as it did against Pittsburgh last Sunday. The guys who regularly struggle with stunts are the ones who can’t move fluidly. Tackle Eugene Monroe and guard Kelechi Osemele both have light feet and loose hips. Their problems right now are in execution and recognition, which offensive line coach Juan Castillo can fix.

4) Steelers CB Cortez Allen is having an awful season and last Sunday he was demoted to No. 4 duties, which meant he didn’t play. Brice McCain and Antwon Blake performed well ahead of him, as did incumbent starter William Gay. Keep in mind, veteran Ike Taylor will soon be back from a broken arm. Allen’s playing time could vanish for the rest of the year. Amazing to think that just two months ago he signed a new five-year, $26 million contract.

5) Robert Quinn is back to being Robert Quinn.

6) The Bengals will run directly at Ahtyba Rubin on Thursday night. He’s not a good point-of-attack defender.

7) Expect RB Robert Turbin to play a bigger role for Seattle down the stretch. He and Marshawn Lynch have aligned in the backfield together multiple times in recent weeks, often setting up a read-option concept.

8) A Seahawk you might as well start learning now: Kevin Pierre-Louis. The fourth-round rookie won’t get much playing time this season but he’s shown tremendous downhill burst in the few snaps he’s played.

9) Veteran center Ryan Kalil has flashed as an out-in-front blocker. That’s especially important in an offense that throws as many running back screens as Carolina’s.

10) Rob Ryan has not been a big blitzer this season, but that could change on Sunday against a 49ers offense that has struggled against extra pressure.

For Film Study tweets throughout the week, follow @Andy_Benoit

 

[mr.stlouis]

I don't really like the idea of Davis airing it out. Of course I hope the light bulb comes on soon, but it's that one big problem he has.

 

[RamFan503]

Also please consider bringing Martz back on staff in some capacity. I am sure that it will be tough for Jeff to take Mike in after the Superbowl loss but the guy can coach and this O needs some help. If nothing else Austin Davis could use some extra tutoring.

I'm with you on needing an O-line that can give the QB time but I'm afraid that bringing in Martz is kind of counter to the idea. Not knocking the idea of Martz as an offensive coach/advisor but he wasn't exactly known for protecting his QBs.

 

[Mackeyser]

I agree about Martz. I liked his results, but they were like taking speed to stay up for 3 straight days to cram for a final. Even if you got a great grade, that kind of output isn't sustainable and ultimately is quite destructive... as we saw.

 

[Rams43]

FWIW...

Count me in the camp that insists on a strong, if not dominant OL. It's practically axiomatic that a team that controls the LOS is a winning team. All QB, RB, TE, andWR production is enhanced when a given team has a strong OL.

So finishing the OL is job ONE, if you ask me. We may not be all that far off, btw.

As to Martz, is there a more polarizing figure for an Offense? The GSOT was a great ride, but if I'm an owner or HC, I don't let him anywhere near my sideline or war room.

Les has a damned good point. There are good reasons why Martz was fired by 4 teams in 6 years, then been an unemployed coach since. That speaks volumes, at least to me.

 

[Alan]

Prime Time hitting one of my nerves:
There are only three games between teams with winning records this week, and no one could have predicted these matchups before the season began: Cleveland at Cincinnati (on Thursday), Kansas City at Buffalo and Miami at Detroit. The common thread between these six teams? They’ve all been stellar in coverage. The common thread there? Each has the ability to play man-to-man.

 

[Boffo97]

4 teams Martz was fired by?

Rams - fired due to front office dysfunction. History clearly showed we should have fired Zygmunt instead. Although Martz should have had a GM making personnel decisions.

Lions - Biggest mistake by Martz was taking that career killing job. Martz was fired as a scapegoat to save the coach. Offense regressed after he was gone.

49ers - Let go because new coach wanted a more conservative offense. Offense regressed after he was gone.

Bears - The one case you can argue was Martz's fault, although Cutler has been called a career killer.

Not hired since - Doesn't really say anything to me. Announcing is easier and pays well. If he did come back, it wouldn't be to the Rams (I'm not sure any of us would return to an organization we felt mistreated us and was wrong to terminate us in a lower-ranked capacity) or to any other dead end jobs.

But I don't buy the whole "NFL won't touch him" deal. That sounds more like projection/wishful thinking more than anything else. If someone is convinced his viewpoint is the correct one, it's easy to assume other people reached the "correct" conclusion as well.

 

[Rams43]

4 teams Martz was fired by?

Rams - fired due to front office dysfunction. History clearly showed we should have fired Zygmunt instead. Although Martz should have had a GM making personnel decisions.

Lions - Biggest mistake by Martz was taking that career killing job. Martz was fired as a scapegoat to save the coach. Offense regressed after he was gone.

49ers - Let go because new coach wanted a more conservative offense. Offense regressed after he was gone.

Bears - The one case you can argue was Martz's fault, although Cutler has been called a career killer.

Not hired since - Doesn't really say anything to me. Announcing is easier and pays well. If he did come back, it wouldn't be to the Rams (I'm not sure any of us would return to an organization we felt mistreated us and was wrong to terminate us in a lower-ranked capacity) or to any other dead end jobs.

But I don't buy the whole "NFL won't touch him" deal. That sounds more like projection/wishful thinking more than anything else. If someone is convinced his viewpoint is the correct one, it's easy to assume other people reached the "correct" conclusion as well.

Here's my thinking re Martz, Boffo.

Martz was fired by 4 different teams.

Despite an intense and unquenchable need every single year in the NFL for quality OC's and/or HC's, Martz has remained unemployed in either capacity for 4 years, I believe.

'Nuff said...

BTW, I do enjoy his TV commentaries.

 

[Boffo97]

Here's my thinking re Martz, Boffo.

Martz was fired by 4 different teams.

Despite an intense and unquenchable need every single year in the NFL for quality OC's and/or HC's, Martz has remained unemployed in either capacity for 4 years, I believe.

'Nuff said...

BTW, I do enjoy his TV commentaries.

The problem there is that putting the facts like that makes implications that we don't know are true, mainly that it was his fault he was fired (which in some of those situations we KNOW is not true) and that he's been actively looking for OC work since.

I absolutely stand by what I said above. Unfortunately, some fans will never forgive him because the Rams lost a Super Bowl that the refs were always going to have them lose.

 

[LesBaker]

Here's my thinking re Martz, Boffo.

Martz was fired by 4 different teams.

Despite an intense and unquenchable need every single year in the NFL for quality OC's and/or HC's, Martz has remained unemployed in either capacity for 4 years, I believe.

'Nuff said...

BTW, I do enjoy his TV commentaries.

He is excellent as a commentator, I really enjoy him in that role. I don't want him anywhere near the Rams.

 

[Boffo97]

He is excellent as a commentator, I really enjoy him in that role. I don't want him anywhere near the Rams.

Me neither, just for completely different reasons.

If he DID take a job with the organization that arguably unfairly terminated him previously in a lesser role than before, he'd have a HUGE chip on his shoulder. Of course, I don't see any way he would do so to begin with.

Announcer work is easier than OC work and probably pays somewhat comparably.