Rams finalizing trade for mark barron

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RamFan503

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That's probably how it will play out but McDonald was a major fail at FS (or at least in doing things that an NFL FS does) in college.
Dang it Alan. This isn't true. We keep going around and around on this. TJ was asked to play out of position at the end in SC. Before that he was considered very good in pass coverage. Was he the best cover safety? No. But a major fail is completely and utterly off base. Several of us watched him actually play in college and have told you this before. TJ is not a liability in pass coverage. If asked to play the thumper, he can do that too. But you can't ask a guy to play a hybrid SS/LB position and expect FS type stats and pass coverage out of him. I wouldn't put him one on one with the other team's shiftiest receiver but is that what we would be asking him to do?

But here are a couple pre-draft quotes about TJ:

"McDonald and the Trojans entered the season with National Championship expectations, but stumbled to a six-loss season with the defense playing particularly bad football down the stretch. McDonald moved into more of a hybrid linebacker/safety role for USC, setting a career high in tackles (112) and tackles for loss (6.5). He also recorded a sack, deflected five passes, and nabbed two interceptions on his way to second-team All-Conference honors." - nfl.com

"McDonald was used sparingly in man coverage, but when asked to he was surprisingly successful more often than not. Combined with good balance, he has a good punch to re-direct receivers in the slot and showed enough speed to run with most slot receivers. Working against McDonald's draft stock is the fact that he played a lot of "robber" coverage at USC. In other words, he was used as more of a hybrid between a safety and a linebacker than a pure NFL-style free safety." Bleacher Report

Personally, I think this is a pretty good pick up. We get a young guy who has started his entire career in the NFL and I think he compliments TJ fairly well. I think it sort of goes along with Fish's philosophy where there really isn't a true FS/SS distinction.
 

Alan

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RamFan503 not a good dancer:
Dang it Alan. This isn't true. We keep going around and around on this. TJ was asked to play out of position at the end in SC. Before that he was considered very good in pass coverage. Was he the best cover safety? No. But a major fail is completely and utterly off base. Several of us watched him actually play in college and have told you this before. TJ is not a liability in pass coverage. If asked to play the thumper, he can do that too. But you can't ask a guy to play a hybrid SS/LB position and expect FS type stats and pass coverage out of him. I wouldn't put him one on one with the other team's shiftiest receiver but is that what we would be asking him to do?

You're still not understanding what I'm saying or even talking about. I am NOT saying that he isn't good in pass coverage. I AM saying that he isn't good at playing center field. It's nice that you and others think he's good in man pass coverage but as that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about I can't really even figure out where to begin refuting your points. Nothing in your post, including what I didn't quote addresses his short comings that I'm talking about so the fact that you quoted that stuff tells me we're still not on the same page here.

I'll boil it down to this: When asked to be the last line of defense he was a complete and utter fail. He wasn't a failure tackling. He wasn't a failure in man coverage. There where articles talking about that very thing. He didn't fall to the third round because of off the field issues, he fell because of the issues talked about below. He only received a grade of 66.5 at NFL.com. This isn't even the worst analysis I've read on him but pay close attention to the "BOTTOM LINE" portion of this analysis.

Rob Rang ranked him 6th among FSs only.
Walter Football ranked him 14th among all safeties.
Draftek ranked him 7th among FSs only.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/t.j.-mcdonald?id=2539309
DRAFTED BY: RAMS
  • ROUND3
  • PICK9
  • OVERALL71
COMBINE RESULTS
GRADE
66.5?
  • 4.59 SEC
  • 19 REPS
    Top Performer
  • 40.0 INCH
    Top Performer
  • 131.0 INCH
    Top Performer
  • 6.89 SEC
  • 4.20 SEC
BLUE STAR = COMBINE TOP PERFORMER

DRAFT ANALYSIS:
"You're talking about the offspring of a famous father with NFL pedigree. This guy will take your head off. When he's in the box and tackling, he'll be an absolutely physical presence. The only negative is he has some stiffness, which a lot of tall defensive backs have. But I love his physicality." -- Mike Mayock


  • 6'2"HEIGHT
  • 33 1/8"ARM LENGTH
  • 219LBS.WEIGHT
  • 9 1/4"HANDS
OVERVIEW
McDonald has spent his football life trying to live up to the name his father made for himself as an All-American safety at USC in the mid-1980s and 13-year NFL veteran who won a Super Bowl as a member of the San Francisco 49ers in 1994. T.J. (stands for Tim, Jr.) has never shied away from that pressure, however, earning his own accolades over the past couple of seasons. McDonald’s brother, Tevin, is a true sophomore safety who enrolled at crosstown rival UCLA instead of following his dad and brother as Trojans.



The high school All-American (Tim, Sr. was his head coach at Edison High in Fresno) didn’t get a chance to star because of the team’s deep secondary his true freshman year, but he did play in every game as a reserve and on special teams. The departure of Taylor Mays, however, gave McDonald a chance to fill the leadership and production void as a sophomore. League coaches named him second-team All-Pac-10 in 2010 after he led USC with 89 tackles while also posting three interceptions and four pass breakups. McDonald missed the team’s season finale against UCLA with a right shoulder injury. Multiple media outlets named McDonald to their All-American teams after he started 11 of 12 games in his junior year, missing the first half of the Colorado game for a big hit against to “defenseless” Stanford receiver Chris Owusu the previous week. The 2011 first-team all-conference pick had 67 tackles and three interceptions on the year, and his second career blocked punt helped the team beat Oregon in Eugene. McDonald and the Trojans entered the season with National Championship expectations, but stumbled to a six-loss season with the defense playing particularly bad football down the stretch. McDonald moved into more of a hybrid linebacker/safety role for USC, setting a career high in tackles (112) and tackles for loss (6.5). He also recorded a sack, deflected five passes, and nabbed two interceptions on his way to second-team All-Conference honors.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS
NFL bloodlines with pro size and length who has played deep and in the box. Hits like a missile in the middle of the field, uses his shoulder to bring real power into the back or midsection of receivers with closing speed and tenacity. Solid ball skills, looks high and wide passes into his hands and can get down to get his hands under low throws. Physical presence around the line, sticks his head into short-yardage plays and uses his length to stay off lineman blocks and to wrap up running backs in traffic and receivers in the flat. Attacks the alley aggressively when coming downhill from two-high coverages. Does a good job fighting through blocks and making tackles on screens. Tries to lay the kill shot on wide receivers over the middle, but generally a good form tackler against running backs. Height and size come in handy on jump ball situations. Will be a factor on special teams, both using his length on the kick block team and as a strong tackler on coverage units.
WEAKNESSES
Will be pegged as a pure in-the-box safety. Protected in coverage by being used extensively as a Robber his senior season. Linear, high-cut player who is tall in his back pedals. Displays stiff hips, average change-of-direction ability and burst. His height and average short-area quickness become an issue when trying to break down quickly to make tackles in space, can be eluded in the open field by quicker receivers and running backs. Also lacks flexibility to turn-and-run with better receivers and tight ends. Does not have the range to get to the sideline, even sometimes to the hash, in single-high looks. Stares into the backfield, gets frozen and fooled by play action, loses receivers behind him, and takes time to recover after a false step.
NFL COMPARISON
Bernard Pollard
BOTTOM LINE
The son of NFL Pro Bowl safety Tim McDonald and brother of UCLA safety Tevin earned All-American recognition for his big hits and hands in coverage (six interceptions in 2010-2011). However, his lack of agility and instincts could limit his ability to be a reliable starting contributor in a league that is becoming more wide-open. He will probably be best served as a sub-package defender who plays near the line of scrimmage.

Until we both get on the same page with what we're talking about there's no point in discussing this further and we'll just have to continue to disagree on this. That's regardless of how many times you bring up points that are not pertinent to what I'm talking about. Won't be the last time we disagree. :p
 

yrba1

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My personal opinion is that Barron will play SS role for us and McDonald a hybrid LB/S role. I think they want to phase Dunbar out of the game-plan due to his coverage deficiencies but don't want to sacrifice our ability to stop the run. Think we'll see more 2 LB/3 S looks.

If this is the case, it should help us against those quick, short passes that continue to kill us.
 

Jumava1968

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Let's be for real, we got lucky with Gaines in the 6th this year, but most of the time a 6th round pick is nothing but a glorified UDFA.
Those picks could be bundled to move up into the 2nd,3rd & 4th rounds,and yes you are correct sometimes they get lucky.But we will never know that now since we don't have a 6th round pick next year draft.
 

Yamahopper

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Good move by the Rams. Cheap price for that talent. Barron can flat play. It's not about fitting him in it's about fitting the other safeties around him.
 

ram007

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Does anyone know which team in the league has more first round picks playing on defense than Rams? How many, including Barron, does Rams have now? 6? And yet at best they are a Mediocre defense. It defies logic:mad: :palm:
 

Mikey Ram

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How things change, when drafted this was said

“"Boy, is this a solid pick. I love this kid because his floor and ceiling are the same thing. His ceiling is to be a Pro Bowl safety; his floor is to be a Pro Bowl safety. That's how good this young man is. This is going to be a good football team next year."
-Mike Mayock, former NFL safety and current NFL Network analyst”

If memory serves me (and it often does not), Mayock said that Tavon Austin was the MOST EXPLOSIVE played he had EVER seen............"EVER"...Used wrongly or not, after a season and a half, Tavon isn't the most explosive player I've seen since, like, oh, yesterday...
 

Memento

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Does anyone know which team in the league has more first round picks playing on defense than Rams? How many, including Barron, does Rams have now? 6? And yet at best they are a Mediocre defense. It defies logic:mad: :palm:

Six. Four on the D-line, one linebacker, and one safety. The other regular starters (sans Gaines) are second and third round picks. Honestly, the defense hasn't lived up to expectations.
 

RhodyRams

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Does anyone know which team in the league has more first round picks playing on defense than Rams? How many, including Barron, does Rams have now? 6? And yet at best they are a Mediocre defense. It defies logic:mad: :palm:

mediocre defense and a medicare offense
 

Memento

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This is nothing more then Fisher trying to salvage some wins at any cost to salvage his sorry incompetent ass. The Rams lose a 4 th and 6th round pick and they just dumped Keenum without even giving him a chance and not even set at the QB position. This is idiocy at the highest order. Fisher needs to be fired now and take his boy Shottenheimer to go ruin some other team.

So Fisher and Snead acquire a recent top ten pick who, by all accounts, is a very talented player for only a fourth and a sixth...and you want him to be fired for that?
 

RamFan503

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Sorry Alan, but when you say this about a guy who was receiving all college honors when he DID play FS I'm not sure what you want me to take from it.
That's probably how it will play out but McDonald was a major fail at FS (or at least in doing things that an NFL FS does) in college.

He moved to a hybrid position because of Kiffin's scheme that was a miserable failure. The year prior, he was a true FS and....
"2011: McDonald started for his second season at free safety as a junior in 2011 and had an outstanding season. Overall in 2011 while appearing in all 12 (he started all but the Colorado game), he had 67 tackles (third on USC), including 2.5 for losses, a team-high 3 interceptions, 2 deflections, a fumble recovery and a blocked punt. He was one of 15 semifinalists for the 2011 Thorpe Award and one of 20 quarterfinalists for the Lott IMPACT Trophy. He made the 2011 Sporting News and Pro Football Weekly All-American first team (joining his father, Tim, as the first father-son All-American first teamers in USC history), the SI.com All-American second team and the Phil Steele All-American third team.He made the 2011 All-Pac-12 first team. He made the 2011 ESPN.com, CBSSports.com, CollegeFootballNews.com and Phil Steele All-Pac-12 first team. He won USC's 2011 Defensive Perimeter Player of the Year Award. He was a USC captain (joining his father, Tim, as the first father-son captains in Trojan history)."

His senior year was why he fell in status among draft gurus. But he was asked to play a position that is hardly something you see as a full time role in the NFL. And where can you show that he was a failure as the "last line of defense" at any time in his career? What have you seen that suggests he can't play center field? He did a pretty damn good job of it before being asked to play out of position in Kiffin's ill-fated defensive scheme.

As a PAC 12 guy and long time USC fan (now more of a Duck fan), I watched him play and that just wasn't the case. Most analysts used the role he played in his final season as a rationale behind that but nowhere have I ever seen anyone suggest that he was ever a failure in coverage or playing deep zone. I have seen analysis where they question his ability to do so but most of that is taking his senior year into account and docking him points because he had a drop off in true safety production during his senior year.

The kid can cover. He knows zones. He has very good to elite ball skills. And he has the football smarts to make up for a little stiffness and lack of quick twitch. I guess we'll see how this all plays out but I envision him playing both FS and SS roles - especially with the addition of Barron. Guess we'll see.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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That's probably how it will play out but McDonald was a major fail at FS (or at least in doing things that an NFL FS does) in college.

I disagree. The one bad year he had was because of injuries to teammates and he was asked to and tried to do too much. He played good FS in his earlier years.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Sorry Alan, but when you say this about a guy who was receiving all college honors when he DID play FS I'm not sure what you want me to take from it.


He moved to a hybrid position because of Kiffin's scheme that was a miserable failure. The year prior, he was a true FS and....
"2011: McDonald started for his second season at free safety as a junior in 2011 and had an outstanding season. Overall in 2011 while appearing in all 12 (he started all but the Colorado game), he had 67 tackles (third on USC), including 2.5 for losses, a team-high 3 interceptions, 2 deflections, a fumble recovery and a blocked punt. He was one of 15 semifinalists for the 2011 Thorpe Award and one of 20 quarterfinalists for the Lott IMPACT Trophy. He made the 2011 Sporting News and Pro Football Weekly All-American first team (joining his father, Tim, as the first father-son All-American first teamers in USC history), the SI.com All-American second team and the Phil Steele All-American third team.He made the 2011 All-Pac-12 first team. He made the 2011 ESPN.com, CBSSports.com, CollegeFootballNews.com and Phil Steele All-Pac-12 first team. He won USC's 2011 Defensive Perimeter Player of the Year Award. He was a USC captain (joining his father, Tim, as the first father-son captains in Trojan history)."

His senior year was why he fell in status among draft gurus. But he was asked to play a position that is hardly something you see as a full time role in the NFL. And where can you show that he was a failure as the "last line of defense" at any time in his career? What have you seen that suggests he can't play center field? He did a pretty damn good job of it before being asked to play out of position in Kiffin's ill-fated defensive scheme.

As a PAC 12 guy and long time USC fan (now more of a Duck fan), I watched him play and that just wasn't the case. Most analysts used the role he played in his final season as a rationale behind that but nowhere have I ever seen anyone suggest that he was ever a failure in coverage or playing deep zone. I have seen analysis where they question his ability to do so but most of that is taking his senior year into account and docking him points because he had a drop off in true safety production during his senior year.

The kid can cover. He knows zones. He has very good to elite ball skills. And he has the football smarts to make up for a little stiffness and lack of quick twitch. I guess we'll see how this all plays out but I envision him playing both FS and SS roles - especially with the addition of Barron. Guess we'll see.

Exactly.

I think the only reason TJ was playing SS was because McLeod wasn't good at it. TJ can do both.
 

Ramrocket

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I guess this also means the end of the 'Joyner experiment' at safety that many us here were hoping to see.
 

RamFan503

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So Fisher and Snead acquire a recent top ten pick who, by all accounts, is a very talented player for only a fourth and a sixth...and you want him to be fired for that?
Yeah - y'know - I just couldn't let that go. Opinions are fine but show a little respect or head on over to the PD for this kind of smack talk.
 

Memento

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I guess this also means the end of the 'Joyner experiment' at safety that many us here were hoping to see.

True, but Joyner's going to see a ton of time as a nickel corner, and he really stood out in a positive way during the Chiefs game.
 

Ramrocket

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True, but Joyner's going to see a ton of time as a nickel corner, and he really stood out in a positive way during the Chiefs game.

Totally agree. A few here have suggested that Tru would be a prime candidate to move to Safety but I have always been curious to see how Joyner would go there. He has all the attributes in my eyes to make a successful transition but as you say, he will fulfill the NC role nicely if the Chiefs game is anything to go by.