Goff and Wentz thread v1.35

[Ramon Ram]

LACHAMP 46 said:
"Most QB's try to hold the ball with 2 hands when scanning the field. And a lot of QB's have been hit as hard or harder and have held onto the ball.
turnovers are huge....one was a fumble...the other was a pick. No matter how terrible the protection was ( and several have said it was decent on that drive), you can't fumble there....3rd and 2 at the 8 yard line. Get rid of it...and definitely hold onto the ball."

I saw Wentz fall to the ground Thursday while dropping back and then get up and complete a pass. I believe Goff doesn't get up and if he does it's a question of does he have the ball in his hands when he does get up?

Les Baker said:
"He is learning, the dude just finished puberty for fucks sake."

Exactly and Fisher drafted a younger QB which we all like because he's younger and will be around longer right? Well after a decade plus of losing I don't want to raise a kid out of puberty. Fisher should have drafted the one who had the fastest chance to progress considering his job status unless he was that comfortable and thought no one could touch him. Well maybe ED helped us all out but he should have drafted for immediate success.

Memphis Ram said:
"Quite frankly, I believe that if Fisher had selected Wentz, he'd still be the HC."

I fear this to be true as well and prefer Goff with McVay with Cousins looming than Fisher with Wentz any day.

The point of the thread was that I had a flashback watching Wentz this week and Goff this week as I still see a less confident QB. I have been a Ram fan for 49 years and will always support them and at this point I believe in McVay and will root hard for Goff. I will let the Wentz thing go, publicly, and look for a much better season as I think the coaching will prove out over time.

 

[jrry32]

LACHAMP 46 said:
"Most QB's try to hold the ball with 2 hands when scanning the field. And a lot of QB's have been hit as hard or harder and have held onto the ball.
turnovers are huge....one was a fumble...the other was a pick. No matter how terrible the protection was ( and several have said it was decent on that drive), you can't fumble there....3rd and 2 at the 8 yard line. Get rid of it...and definitely hold onto the ball."

I saw Wentz fall to the ground Thursday while dropping back and then get up and complete a pass. I believe Goff doesn't get up and if he does it's a question of does he have the ball in his hands when he does get up?

Carson Wentz fumbled 14 times in 2016 while being sacked 33 times. Goff fumbled 5 times in 2016 while being sacked 26 times. Even if we add in rushes, Goff fumbled 5 times while having a combined 34 sacks/rushers. Wentz fumbled 14 times while having a combined 79 sacks/rushes. Let's check the math here:
Wentz
1 fumble per every 2.4 sacks
1 fumble per every 5.6 sacks/rushes

Goff
1 fumble per every 5.2 sacks
1 fumble per every 6.8 sacks/rushes

Basically, your claim doesn't have any basis in fact. Wentz had a bigger issue with fumbles in 2016 than Goff. And one of the things I noted as a Wentz weakness in college was his tendency to fumble the football.

 

[OldSchool]

It has....it's been worse...but it appeared adequate. I'm more concerned about the run blocking. 2-3 seconds is all a passing play really needs.
Most QB's try to hold the ball with 2 hands when scanning the field. And a lot of QB's have been hit as hard or harder and have held onto the ball.

turnovers are huge....one was a fumble...the other was a pick. No matter how terrible the protection was ( and several have said it was decent on that drive), you can't fumble there....3rd and 2 at the 8 yard line. Get rid of it...and definitely hold onto the ball.

Good lord the lengths you'll go to in an attempt to justify your loony tunes opinions are amazing! hahahaha

 

[LesBaker]

Shouldn't that have been Hav in between Goff and Bosa in his peripheral vision. Goff does move slightly left away from Bosa who was basically unblocked.

Well yes it should have been LOL.

He will make mistakes along the way. Don't act so surprised.

I'm amazed that people think a QB should step on the field and right away be a star.

When does that ever happen?

I saw Wentz fall to the ground Thursday while dropping back and then get up and complete a pass. I believe Goff doesn't get up and if he does it's a question of does he have the ball in his hands when he does get up?

As illustrated, Wentz loses the ball at an alarming rate. Why would you pretend otherwise?

Wentz looked like shit last year after a hot start, he looked every bit as lost as Goff and was the checkdown king.

 

[Adi]

I agree with you to give him a chance , but to me Wentz just looks the part of a confident man at QB .

He does , I was honestly a pro wentz guy at the draft because he fit the power run offence better. His confidence comes from his coaching staff, goff never got that confidence from Fisher.

 

[LesBaker]

He does , I was honestly a pro wentz guy at the draft because he fit the power run offence better. His confidence comes from his coaching staff, goff never got that confidence from Fisher.

Couldn't disagree more. He looked rattled at the slightest bit of pressure, he ran out of the pocket and checked down as fast as he could. I saw him play enough to know confidence isn't a word I would use to describe him. He was getting rid of the ball as fast as he could.

I think people are thinking only of his first handful of games. He looked terrible after that, just horrible.

I just looked at his game logs. After week 5 he didn't have a SINGLE game with YPA over 6.6 and had 8 games where his YPA was UNDER 6. That stinks. And honestly he wasn't even killing it on completion % despite checking down and throwing super short passes.

Maybe people don't want to admit it for whatever reason, but Wentz looked bad last year.

Here's a story from the local media.

And by the way this was early in the season. It got worse. Much worse.

http://www.phillyvoice.com/carson-wentz-should-be-real-quarterback-stop-dinking-dunking/

 

[LACHAMP46]

Good lord the lengths you'll go to in an attempt to justify your loony tunes opinions

He had a great drive going.....then looked like shit the rest of the game....caused 2 turnovers....dude has NEVER won a big game...a tough game...a ranked opponent....or an NFL game...and he's played in 7.

I watched Trubisky, Kizer, Watson....and a few rookies from last year....You tell me, who's still struggling around to get the ball downfield....locking on to targets....And since Mojo turned this into a Goff v Wentz thread....Please look at Wentz....week #1.....and tell me, Goff does ANYTHING better than him?

I'm not justifying anything...just telling the ROD forum members that respond to my posts, what I'm thinking....

You either are so fanatical in your love everything Rams, or are related to someone on the Rams, that you'd try to push any credible point aside as some sort of crazy proclamation....ok. The games start soon....

I say the looney guys are putting their heads in the sand, and say, WOW, well he got the center snap down....he was great until the fumble (he wasn't)....It was a bad pass that caused the int (it was, but what caused the bad throw) and those things happen. Shit like that only happens to QB's like Goff. Sun-sets-in-west....daddy baller all grown up...clueless surfer dude...Jeff Spicoli in the flesh....QBing my Rams....while the 9ers, Seahawks, and Az rebuild in front of our eyes.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Maybe people don't want to admit it for whatever reason, but Wentz looked bad last year.

Stop it Les...a season is 16 games....rookies do hit a mythical wall....but tell me what about his year looked bad?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WentCa00.htm

14 fumbles....7 recovered is the worst stat....but hey, the ginger runs.....and runs well


View: https://twitter.com/PFF/status/900919160989003776

 

[bluecoconuts]

He had a great drive going.....then looked like crap the rest of the game....caused 2 turnovers....dude has NEVER won a big game...a tough game...a ranked opponent....or an NFL game...and he's played in 7.

I watched Trubisky, Kizer, Watson....and a few rookies from last year....You tell me, who's still struggling around to get the ball downfield....locking on to targets....And since Mojo turned this into a Goff v Wentz thread....Please look at Wentz....week #1.....and tell me, Goff does ANYTHING better than him?

I'm not justifying anything...just telling the ROD forum members that respond to my posts, what I'm thinking....

You either are so fanatical in your love everything Rams, or are related to someone on the Rams, that you'd try to push any credible point aside as some sort of crazy proclamation....ok. The games start soon....

I say the looney guys are putting their heads in the sand, and say, WOW, well he got the center snap down....he was great until the fumble (he wasn't)....It was a bad pass that caused the int (it was, but what caused the bad throw) and those things happen. crap like that only happens to QB's like Goff. Sun-sets-in-west....daddy baller all grown up...clueless surfer dude...Jeff Spicoli in the flesh....QBing my Rams....while the 9ers, Seahawks, and Az rebuild in front of our eyes.

Go watch one of those teams then instead of trashing our QB, and pining for the QB taken after him that was every bit as awful as Goff except he had the tools to succeed and Goff didn't.

We all talk about how Wentz was set up for success with a QB friendly staff and offense and yet he was still terrible. How bad would he have looked with Fisher and Boras at the helm?

Wentz isn't our QB and he's not good. If you're going to wish for a new QB at least wish for one worth a damn, not Carson Palmer 2.0

 

[LACHAMP46]

Go watch one of those teams then instead of trashing our QB, and pining for the QB taken after him that was every bit as awful as Goff except he had the tools to succeed and Goff didn't.

Trashing him? Did I play against the Chargers? Did I ask him to fumble? Miss reads? Hold the ball? Throw the pass? Let the ball slip? Did I ask him to have little hands? Sun sets in west has done it all himself....
Hell, I've been a Ram fan longer than you, perhaps YOU should follow Goff if he's ever cut or traded....

Wentz isn't our QB....but to act like the guy isn't better than what we have is just fooling yourself...some guys liked to be fooled...or act foolish anyway.

 

[LesBaker]

Stop it Les...a season is 16 games....rookies do hit a mythical wall....but tell me what about his year looked bad?

The wall arrived in week 5 then.

 

[Rynie]

Dak > Wentz > Goff

 

[Prime Time]

Is it time to lock this thread? :mrburns:

 

[Dxmissile]

Carson Wentz fumbled 14 times in 2016 while being sacked 33 times. Goff fumbled 5 times in 2016 while being sacked 26 times. Even if we add in rushes, Goff fumbled 5 times while having a combined 34 sacks/rushers. Wentz fumbled 14 times while having a combined 79 sacks/rushes. Let's check the math here:
Wentz
1 fumble per every 2.4 sacks
1 fumble per every 5.6 sacks/rushes

Goff
1 fumble per every 5.2 sacks
1 fumble per every 6.8 sacks/rushes

Basically, your claim doesn't have any basis in fact. Wentz had a bigger issue with fumbles in 2016 than Goff. And one of the things I noted as a Wentz weakness in college was his tendency to fumble the football.

Wentz also played all year so you can't really do that type of math when one guy fumbled 5 times in 7 games

 

[Dxmissile]

Trashing him? Did I play against the Chargers? Did I ask him to fumble? Miss reads? Hold the ball? Throw the pass? Let the ball slip? Did I ask him to have little hands? Sun sets in west has done it all himself....
Hell, I've been a Ram fan longer than you, perhaps YOU should follow Goff if he's ever cut or traded....

Wentz isn't our QB....but to act like the guy isn't better than what we have is just fooling yourself...some guys liked to be fooled...or act foolish anyway.

Didn't know whether to do the haha face or thread winner

 

[Mojo Ram]

Is it time to lock this thread? :mrburns:

 

[LesBaker]

Wentz also played all year so you can't really do that type of math when one guy fumbled 5 times in 7 games

Wentz had 9 in his first 8 games. 7 in his first 7 games.

In 5 games last year he had 2 fumbles, one of the games he had 3.

 

[dieterbrock]

Dak > Wentz > Goff

On a side note, this kid Cooper Rush looks like a real keeper.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Trashing him?

You kind of are, dude. Your argument basically boils down to "He sucks" and that he's stupid so we're sitting stagnant while the other teams in our division rebuild... Which I don't really get what you mean by that since Seattle isn't rebuilding nor do they really need to, the Cardinals haven't improved if anything they've regressed and they're putting out a bunch of guys that are ready to retire in Palmer and Fitzgerald, and the 49ers don't even have a QB....

Did I ask him to fumble?

No, but you asked him to hang onto the ball and acted like any other QB would be able to when I don't think anyone in the league, QB or no, could hang onto that ball in that situation. I bet if you hold the ball like that my 110 lb fiancee could knock it out. It's physics dude, the average human hand doesn't have the strength to grip the ball tight enough to hold it with that much force baring down on the ball. Sometimes the defense makes a great play, and that was a defender making a great play. You'll notice our defenders do that a lot against elite QB's, but that doesn't mean that those QB's aren't still elite.

Miss reads?

What missed reads? From what I can tell his reads have been perfect the past two weeks. Did he miss Woods for a TD when he threw the ball away? Sure, but that's because his other two reads weren't there and the internal clock was up. It was a quick hitter play, it was designed to be over shortly, and the longer he held onto the ball the more he risked a bigger mistake. Still the correct read though, you can make the correct read and miss a potential touch down, just like you can make the wrong read and score a touchdown, similar to Mannion's game winner against the Raiders when he threw to Reynolds. Scored a TD, but made the wrong read, and you bet that the coaches pointed that out to him.

Throw the pass?

On the interception? Good read, bad throw. Goff admitted to that, he didn't get the release he wanted because he rushed it a bit. That's on him, nobody has says otherwise. Not every throw is going to be perfect, no QB throws 100% of their throws perfectly, and when you're the youngest starting QB in the league you're definitely no different. That's stuff that gets better with time, and not something we'd fix by changing QB's since our other two options aren't grizzled seasoned vets.

Did I ask him to have little hands? Sun sets in west has done it all himself....

Here you're just trashing him for no reason. You're insinuating he's stupid because he didn't know a trivia question off the top of his head, I'm willing to bet I could do the same thing and stump you with a trivia question as well. Imagine if I did and then your boss came up to you and said you were fired because you didn't have a the answer to a trivia question right away for something that's completely unrelated to your job... I'd bet you'd be pretty confused and pissed though.

Oh and a little fun fact about hand size, since you're seemingly obsessed with that.

There's no data to suggest that hand size means jack shit to an NFL QB. That's science baby, what I live for. When you looked at QB's that have been playing since the NFL started measuring hand sizes (2008) there is absolutely zero correlation between small hands and struggling to play in the NFL. There's zero correlation that smaller hands affects throwing the ball, accuracy, velocity, etc.

So then what's the fear? Ball security in terms of fumbles?

Except that the data says that Goff is...... Right in the same spot as Wentz. Yes, that's right, Goff and Wentz had the same fumble per pass attempt as each other, even though Wentz hands are a full inch bigger than Goff's. That means that Wentz doesn't have as good of a grip on the ball, Goff likely has more finger strength than Wentz, so if they ever get into a thumb war you know where to place your bets. And in the case of fumbles per sack taken, Wentz and Goff were pretty much the same, again but Goff had a slight edge in that department. Both are within the league averages though, neither are an outlier.

Small hands doesn't mean anything. Data backs that up, it's just another stupid metric that the NFL pretends is important. Here's the raw data to plug into the R value for your own graph and see for yourself.

AV/S vs. hand size: 0.104

Velocity vs. hand size: 0.036

YPA vs. hand size: 0.088

Cmp% vs. hand size: -0.195

INT% vs. hand size: 0.123

Attemps/fumble vs. hand size: -0.271

Sacks/fumble vs. hand size: -0.429

My favorite thing in science, Correlation isn't causation, except there isn't even correlation here, there's just people making things up and pretending that it means something and others who don't want to do any of the research simply saying okay.

Hell, I've been a Ram fan longer than you, perhaps YOU should follow Goff if he's ever cut or traded....

Means nothing, you're still trashing our QB.

Wentz isn't our QB....but to act like the guy isn't better than what we have is just fooling yourself...some guys liked to be fooled...or act foolish anyway.

You're right, and I never said that Wentz wasn't better than Goff last year. I'm saying that Wentz was shit last year and he was. There was one starting QB that was worse than Wentz last year, and that's Goff. So obviously Wentz was better. But here's the rub,

Wentz went to a QB friendly team with a QB friendly offense with QB friendly coaches who had a reputation for developing QB's and designing offenses to maximize a QB's potential, and we saw it right out of the gate... And then week 4 happened, and there was tape on Wentz, and he was unable to adapt. He was unable to push the ball down the field and began just dinking and dunking like he was playing in a Spagnuolo offense, he turned the ball over a lot, more than Goff, and was just terrible.

Goff went to a team that wasn't QB friendly, with an offense that was run heavy and not QB friendly, with defensive coaches that had no idea how to develop a QB or plan an offense.

And yet he was just a little worse than Wentz.

Quite frankly I think that speaks volumes about what Goff can do for us.... And what we'd look like with Wentz under center... And Fisher as our coach, since he would likely have been retained. Wentz was who Fisher wanted. Snead wanted Goff because Snead wanted a real offense, hence why he drafted Goff, who was compared to Matt Ryan (who led the number one offense last year and was MVP), and then got Matt Ryan's QB coach, and an offensive minded new HC.

You wanted and still want Wentz and that Fisher offense and that's fine. I want something more, something better, something that's fun to watch. Goff and McVay can deliver that, we just have to see if they will.

 

[rams56]

By the end of this year it will be very interesting to see where all three , Goff, Wentz, and Prescott, stack up....I think there is a strong Possibility that all 3 become very good qbs....I realize I'm a Lil biased believing Goff had the highest ceiling before the draft, and a Rams fan, I don't believe I have my head in the sand...mistakes happen when your still have yet to play your 8th pro game. See I believe that dump off to Brown wasn't panic.... but desisive... scrambling through arm takes and drawing the defense to him leaving brown open on the sideline for a good run after catch of 13 yds....and from the 2 interviews afterwards sounds like McVay was impressed by that play also....and flash of brilliance. ..imho......

Bottom line I'm a Rams fan First. I'm a Goff fan second, but I like and believe Wentz and Prescott will be close in production to Goff.....but maybe just slightly behind....

Go Rams......