Redskins Cheerleader-Gate

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Farr Be It

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So HUGE difference between the oglers on the adult resort in Costa Rica and the “exclusive nude art show” in the hotel. Gotcha. They were both boner shows. Please. The naked human body IS sexual. That is why we wear clothes.

Not attacking you Blue. But I don’t see a dimes bit of difference. Each of these girls signs up to be ogled. Period. And in the Redskin case, the second shoe is dropping. Some girls are reporting the team did not, in fact threaten or force girls to do anything wrong here.

I don’t know all the facts. Neither does anyone on this board. But we should probably pump the breaks on the moralizing until we know. Let justice do it’s thing.
So Jerry. Different opinion because?...
Calling a completely nude show where somebody wears a funny hat “art” and a body paint photo shoot with cheerleaders used to people watching them gyrate and dance with shorts up their arse is an outrage?!!

Do you see where the line is a bit blurred? I’m not advocating these girls being pressured into being “dates” for guys against their will on party boats. If anything like that happened, not cool.

We will see how it all went down. Bottom line again. I wouldn’t be one of the guys on the boat. I would not have sent my daughter on that trip. Discernment.

There is a ton of disrespectful talk toward women on this board. I don’t judge. But some of the same guys are the ones moralizing and wanting to “bring down Snyder”.

Just seems double standard. Don’t you think Jerry?
 

Dieter the Brock

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It does to me. Especially when you hide that from them before the trip and pressure them into it while they're stuck there.

I can see how that's out of line
I'm sure the Redskins and the NFL will do everything to avoid it happening again

Edit: I am sure all involved will find a way to move forward
 
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jrry32

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Just seems double standard. Don’t you think Jerry?

Nope. I think there's a huge difference in making a choice freely and being pressured into something you aren't comfortable doing by an employer.
 

Mackeyser

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One thing.

It's not possible to assert a specific incident or outfit as being more inherently "sexual" or "provocative" than any other.

Women have been saying for DECADES that simply existing in public and wearing ANYTHING short of a burka has been considered "provocative". At work or simply anywhere in public view. If a man's watching, it's almost certain she's being objectified.

There was a time when it was considered risque to show one's ankles.

Pretty sure women have ankles still.

Women have all the "parts". And?

The only thing that's changed is how MEN view women, specifically how men objectify women.

If a woman is naked in the forest and there's no man to see her, is she still being provocative? If not, then it follows that it's the presence and perspective if the man that creates the provocation, not the state of dress of the woman.

Moreover, why does a woman's sexuality have to be a function of "giving a man a boner".

Why can't a woman embrace her sexuality because SHE wants to do that without any consideration for ANYTHING that any man might think? If a lesbian is embracing her sexuality, it's for dang sure she's not trying to provoke anything in a man. Why is that different for straight women?

It's not that some women don't trade in that any more than some men trade on their looks or wealth or whatever. Some people see any attribute as a basis for exchange in a transactional relationship (see the 20-year-old with the 80-year-old geriatric).

But to inherently suspect or judge that women engaged in an activity are doing so expressly and solely because of how it affects men only perpetuates the objectification and subjugation of women.

As long as anyone equates certain activities or certain outfits with a woman's vulnerability, believability or acceptability, we're not gonna make much progress. That's the kind of thinking that leads to that dark place where people equate what a woman wears to "she's asking for it"... because she wore something...because she's a cheerleader...because...she's a woman being a woman, essentially.

And just like now, we see the notion of a woman being called wanton because she showed her ankles...outdated.

We'll see in the not too distant future that judging a woman by what she wears or her activity will be just as outdated.
 

dolphinlover123

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One thing.

It's not possible to assert a specific incident or outfit as being more inherently "sexual" or "provocative" than any other.

Women have been saying for DECADES that simply existing in public and wearing ANYTHING short of a burka has been considered "provocative". At work or simply anywhere in public view. If a man's watching, it's almost certain she's being objectified.

There was a time when it was considered risque to show one's ankles.

Pretty sure women have ankles still.

Women have all the "parts". And?

The only thing that's changed is how MEN view women, specifically how men objectify women.

If a woman is naked in the forest and there's no man to see her, is she still being provocative? If not, then it follows that it's the presence and perspective if the man that creates the provocation, not the state of dress of the woman.

Moreover, why does a woman's sexuality have to be a function of "giving a man a boner".

Why can't a woman embrace her sexuality because SHE wants to do that without any consideration for ANYTHING that any man might think? If a lesbian is embracing her sexuality, it's for dang sure she's not trying to provoke anything in a man. Why is that different for straight women?

It's not that some women don't trade in that any more than some men trade on their looks or wealth or whatever. Some people see any attribute as a basis for exchange in a transactional relationship (see the 20-year-old with the 80-year-old geriatric).

But to inherently suspect or judge that women engaged in an activity are doing so expressly and solely because of how it affects men only perpetuates the objectification and subjugation of women.

As long as anyone equates certain activities or certain outfits with a woman's vulnerability, believability or acceptability, we're not gonna make much progress. That's the kind of thinking that leads to that dark place where people equate what a woman wears to "she's asking for it"... because she wore something...because she's a cheerleader...because...she's a woman being a woman, essentially.

And just like now, we see the notion of a woman being called wanton because she showed her ankles...outdated.

We'll see in the not too distant future that judging a woman by what she wears or her activity will be just as outdated.
I agree. It's important to remember that men are the ones doing the objectification - and it's on them for doing so.
 

Angry Ram

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Somewhere in between is probably the truth. Point is this was a long time before the scandal with Lauer broke. Nobody did any follow up work and investigated. It took a hashtag movement to bring up the level of courage in the women he treated like meat.

Sounds like she didn't care in that clip either.

Treating a girl like meat like you said is wrong, of course. Except with Katie Couric and the Redskins cheerleaders, it isn't a big deal as it's made out to be.
 

OldSchool

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So am I reading this right? They asked the cheerleaders to go for a photo shot then when they got to Costa Rica they told the cheerleaders they’d have to do more than originally told by getting topless with fans/guest viewing the shoot? That’s a scumbag move of epic proportions. I’m not sure how anybody could justify a bait and switch like that.
 

jrry32

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Sounds like she didn't care in that clip either.

Treating a girl like meat like you said is wrong, of course. Except with Katie Couric and the Redskins cheerleaders, it isn't a big deal as it's made out to be.

It's a big deal to the cheerleaders who felt violated and chose not to return to the squad.
 

Angry Ram

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So am I reading this right? They asked the cheerleaders to go for a photo shot then when they got to Costa Rica they told the cheerleaders they’d have to do more than originally told by getting topless with fans/guest viewing the shoot? That’s a scumbag move of epic proportions. I’m not sure how anybody could justify a bait and switch like that.

No, they knew. And they had the option to not do that if they didn't want to (as that's what they say in the video of the NBC article you linked earlier).

There were no fans. Corporate sponsors. Sounds like a total blast.
 

Mackeyser

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So am I reading this right? They asked the cheerleaders to go for a photo shot then when they got to Costa Rica they told the cheerleaders they’d have to do more than originally told by getting topless with fans/guest viewing the shoot? That’s a scumbag move of epic proportions. I’m not sure how anybody could justify a bait and switch like that.

And then they asked 9 of them to "escort" the men who paid to watch them to dinner.

It's just super scummy...
 

Mackeyser

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No, they knew. And they had the option to not do that if they didn't want to (as that's what they say in the video of the NBC article you linked earlier).

There were no fans. Corporate sponsors. Sounds like a total blast.

They didn't escort corporate logos to dinner.

They escorted men...who'd watched them at the photo shoot...and picked them specifically.

Thus it doesn't make any difference if it's fans or corporate sponsors. It doesn't make it any less gross because the dudes are corporate douchebags rather than random douchebags.

That has a total whorehouse feel to it. "Walk the line and pick yer filly!"
 

Farr Be It

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If a woman is naked in the forest and there's no man to see her, is she still being provocative? If not, then it follows that it's the presence and perspective if the man that creates the provocation, not the state of dress of the woman.

big foot.gif
 

LACHAMP46

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What if the victim is threatened with further violence if they go to the police? What if they're ashamed that it happened to them?
Dude....victims all the time risk retaliation and have to report crimes....it's what happens....what would happen if every victim...that was ever threatened...NEVER went to the police?
I'll tell you what, if I was raped by a man, I'd sure be hesitant to go tell the world.
That's on you.....I'd not only tell....I'd do something about it...
Yet, reflexively and subconsciously that's kinda sorta what you're doing.
No I'm not....I advising anyone that has been subjected to ANY criminal misconduct to immediately report it....who wouldn't? If you were in a hit and run accident....and before the perp left he threatened you and said you better not tell, you wouldn't???
they told the cheerleaders they’d have to do more than originally
They ASKED them....and they had a right...according to some...to accept or refuse.
 

LACHAMP46

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.Often times people report crimes to various authorities... and nothing is done, or prosecuted.
So.....no one should ever report crime....This isn't like the days of the mob...
Penn state and Jerry Sandusky is one that comes to mind..
I thought this was evidence of a coverup.....no one wanted to TELL on Jerry.....Guys that were IN the shower...when abuse occurred said NOTHING. Even ole Paterno....heard the whispers....and said nothing....

Saying nothing is almost as bad as the offense itself...it allows others to be victimized.
 

Memento

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Dude....victims all the time risk retaliation and have to report crimes....it's what happens....what would happen if every victim...that was ever threatened...NEVER went to the police?

Not only retaliation. There's more than that. Rapists and abusers aren't just physical. There's a definite psychological aspect to their methods.

Rapists are controlling, domineering, and what they do is for power over their victims. Abusers are also controlling, domineering, and do what they do for power.

The victims - a lot of times - believe that it's their fault for what the perpetrator does. Sometimes, when a job is at stake and their boss is an abusive asshole, they stay on for fear of being fired and blackballed.

What I'm trying to say, Champ, is that it's not all cut-and-dried as your or I would like it to be. Don't blame the cheerleaders for not reporting the crime immediately. Blame the Redskins ownership and the sponsors for fostering an abusive atmosphere.
 

jrry32

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So am I reading this right? They asked the cheerleaders to go for a photo shot then when they got to Costa Rica they told the cheerleaders they’d have to do more than originally told by getting topless with fans/guest viewing the shoot? That’s a scumbag move of epic proportions. I’m not sure how anybody could justify a bait and switch like that.

Yes. The fact that some of the other girls felt they could say no does not absolve the Redskins of blame for being scumbags. In the workplace, one woman might find inappropriate jokes funny. Another woman might see it as sexual harassment. If it does qualify as sexual harassment, the fact that the other woman found it funny does not absolve you of what you've done. The women who originally outed this story made it quite clear that they felt they had to do it.
 

LACHAMP46

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What I'm trying to say, Champ, is that it's not all cut-and-dried as your or I would like it to be. Don't blame the cheerleaders for not reporting the crime immediately. Blame the Redskins ownership and the sponsors for fostering an abusive atmosphere.
I blame the Redskins ownership for not being forthright and explaining whatever it is they wanted these women to do....if it was illegal....they should be prosecuted.

If the ownership group abuses others later....and nothing was even reported, I blame the cheerleaders....

Sometimes, you gotta do the tough thing....the scary thing...the dangerous thing...if it's the right thing


My buddies always talk....deep 3 beers discussions....he keeps saying...we...americans are so soft cause all the "game" ones....American men....died in WWII & Vietnam......LOL
 

Farr Be It

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Edit: I am sure all involved will find a way to move forward
Hopefully, including us. (n)

So am I reading this right? They asked the cheerleaders to go for a photo shot then when they got to Costa Rica they told the cheerleaders they’d have to do more than originally told by getting topless with fans/guest viewing the shoot? That’s a scumbag move of epic proportions. I’m not sure how anybody could justify a bait and switch like that.

That is what is in dispute. If true, we all think it's bad. If this is a lawyer-works up an outrage over something to score a settlement over an obvious deep pocket target- equally scummy. Equally taking advantage of the girl. Agree? Let's see which one is true.
 

ReekofRams

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So I just got done talking to my sister who was a San Diego Charger cheerleader back in the eighties, and found out some interesting and disgusting things, but for the purpose of this thread I'll just talk about the interesting stuff.

She said the team captains told the truth that they weren't forced to do anything,as that is a privilege of being a captain. But the other cheerleaders aren't given that privilege. When they are told to do something they have to do it or risk losing their job. They are dancers by trade and they can't risk being fired, or they will have a very tough time of finding another dance job.

She also says keeping their passports was only for one reason, leverage, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for just their passports as a means to protect them, they would also be willing to hold onto anything the cheerleaders asked the them to in order to protect them.

So after talking to a former cheerleader, I agree with @Mackeyser and @bluecoconuts and @LesBaker.
 
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