Pro Ready...

[FloridaBison]

Perspective.

NDSU fans feel a lot like Rodney Dangerfield. They feel like they get no respect. NDSU fans deal with this ALL the time when engaged with BCS fans.
Perspective.
-The average fan has no clue about the disparity in talent that exists within their league and certainly outside of it.
-Most "vested" fans know the FCS is a lower tier. However, they are not aware that the top end of the FCS is very similar to the BCS. That is clearly represented here with the numerous threads I've read.
-Thats ok though. How can one reasonably expect someone outside of the upper MidWest or a true FCS fan know that? - Is the Media machine going to pump a player from NDSU like they would a guy from a Major program? Nope. Doesn't help fans get educated.
-NDSU/FCS Fans. You know better. This is nothing new. Don't get so "bent" about it, you should know better. Make you mad? YES, but its nothing new. Look. I was born and raised in North Dakota. I am a proud North Dakotan.
- You need to educate, and take the high road and move on. The average person won't take the time to educate themselves.

Lets flip the coin.
-If you summarily dismiss an entire conference in making an argument you are short sited. You open yourself up to being seen as ignorant and weaken your own position. FWIW, Scouts and NFL teams know better.
-Making disparaging comments about a team or its competition is "Bush League". That's like rooting for the 14 year old boy who just punched a 9 year old. How can anyone honestly take you seriously.
-Knocking the FCS or acting like a National Championship outside of the BCS means nothing is a joke. You subject yourself to scrutiny. Why? You should know that with 22 more scholarships you should dominate every time. What if the Majors were carved out from the BCS, and given 22 more scholarships and the signing day is two weeks before the BCS? What could you expect?
-When you make statements from a position of ignorance, or limited understanding you make a weak argument and open yourself for scrutiny.

Education and a little tact go a long way in this world.

please bring on the Dangerfield avatars. That guy was hilarious!!

 

[dieterbrock]

It's all good debate but you have to take the blinders off to recognize it.

I agree that one of us is wearing blinders.
1-AA could give 100 scholarships and that wouldn't INCREASE the talent level
If D1 decreased theirs, that would
It's great football, no doubt. And ND State has built a great program.
But its not D1
If you were a recruited player, would rather play for a team that might potentially play in the Rose Bowl or the D1aa playoffs?

 

[FloridaBison]

I agree that one of us is wearing blinders.
1-AA could give 100 scholarships and that wouldn't INCREASE the talent level
If D1 decreased theirs, that would
It's great football, no doubt. And ND State has built a great program.
But its not D1
If you were a recruited player, would rather play for a team that might potentially play in the Rose Bowl or the D1aa playoffs?

Dieter. I get that, but have you considered that there are FCS programs that have advanced coaching staffs and teach the same things being taught at the BCS level?
Additionally, adding scholarships would dilute the talent pool in the BCS. Nobody could calculate the extent, but it would dilute. Regardless, your statement still does not create an "apples to apples" comparison.

The arguments is that FCS is on par with the BCS top to bottom is ridiculous (the argument, not you). It truly is a continuum. That is how it should be seen.

 

[jrry32]

I swear this has to be at least the third time where a person who prefers Wentz created a thread solely to gripe about Goff being considered more pro ready. And every single time, the rationale is, "No, Wentz is more pro ready because he played in a pro style offense."

That's incorrect. I've already made a number of posts explaining, in detail, why that is incorrect. People need to stop generalizing.(on both sides of the debate)

 

[jrry32]

First I did say it was a team game. You need to reread my comment. As to the having it both ways I will. Look at NDSU's record over the last 10 FBS games we've played. All on the road with 22 less shollies. 7-3. My point being the top level of FCS and the disparity some want to make it out to be isn't as wide as many are trying to make it. Yes NDSU has some cupcakes for the FCS level of play but so does Cal at the FBS level. Not every FBS team the play is top tier talent regardless if they have the FBS label. If that label is going to be used as a knock on Wentz then it's a fair question for Goff and Cal.

If anything, you're only providing fuel to the fire. Let's assume that NDSU is on par with quality FBS teams, that only gives them an advantage over all the FCS teams who are not. And Wentz played on NDSU, not against them.

NDSU is probably on par with a mid tier Power 5 team. They're certainly not on par with the best teams in the FBS but they're on par with the teams that would finish with 5-8 wins in a power conference.

Where the argument comes in is that the entirety of the FCS is not. As a whole, it's far inferior to the FBS.

That all said, Wentz's WRs weren't very talented. Vraa was a good route runner and pass catcher but a very underwhelming athlete. The same held true of the other WRs and TEs except for Shepherd who had some speed. Due to that, Wentz was still throwing into tight windows because his WRs weren't on a different level than the DBs guarding them. So level of competition isn't that big of a deal to me...Wentz not getting pressured a lot is a much bigger deal to me (but that could have happened at a FBS school...see Sam Bradford).

 

[Bisonbacker]

If anything, you're only providing fuel to the fire. Let's assume that NDSU is on par with quality FBS teams, that only gives them an advantage over all the FCS teams who are not. And Wentz played on NDSU, not against them.

NDSU is probably on par with a mid tier Power 5 team. They're certainly not on par with the best teams in the FBS but they're on par with the teams that would finish with 5-8 wins in a power conference.

Where the argument comes in is that the entirety of the FCS is not. As a whole, it's far inferior to the FBS.

That all said, Wentz's WRs weren't very talented. Vraa was a good route runner and pass catcher but a very underwhelming athlete. The same held true of the other WRs and TEs except for Shepherd who had some speed. Due to that, Wentz was still throwing into tight windows because his WRs weren't on a different level than the DBs guarding them. So level of competition isn't that big of a deal to me...Wentz not getting pressured a lot is a much bigger deal to me (but that could have happened at a FBS school...see Sam Bradford).

Yours like mine and many others are only opinions.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/04/26/nfl-draft-carson-wentz-north-dakota-state-pro-ready

It is what it is.

 

[PainTrain]

1500/600 = 2.5

2.5 isn't "nearly 4x"

And NDSU beat the last 5 FBS schools they faced, so the talent disparity and "speed" is grossly exaggerated. Many FBS schools pad their schedules and try to avoid "trap" games.

Just look at Fresno State and some of the other schools from the "weaker" conferences who are damn good. They can't even GET scheduled games with the top schools because the top schools are afraid of losing. But you can bet Alabama is going to trounce East Southwest Louisiana Polytechnic University 85-0... It's a big joke. It's a HUGE part of the reasons some of these big schools don't want a playoff. You can't have some little school come in and beat you when you've already been anointed all season... especially with 22 fewer scholarships...

You can't tell me that NDSU wouldn't have beaten plenty of teams in the SEC this season. Memphis? C'mon... Vandy? Really?

You can only play against who's in front of you and I'm certain if teams would step up against NDSU, they'd play them. I know for a few years UCLA tried that... and they got SPANKED... (I'm a UCLA fan...) so they quit scheduling those tough early games.

I dunno what's gonna happen with their careers, but to say that Div IAA is appreciably slower than IA in some cases is true, but isn't always. There's overlap. There isn't this massive gap between the two.

It's a cumulative effect. Sure most FBS schools play a cupcake and I'm sure FCS are better than the bottom 15-20% of the FBS and can beat top 25 teams now again.

The difference is that the Power 5 FBS schools are playing teams that have NFL talent or close to NFL talent from week to week.

Certainly after the draft you could count up the number of NFL caliber defenders each QB went against in their respective career. Goff's number will be rather large if you look over the last 3 years.

 

[jrry32]

Yours like mine and many others are only opinions.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/04/26/nfl-draft-carson-wentz-north-dakota-state-pro-ready

It is what it is.

So your response to my post is to tell me that opinions are just opinions and then you repost another opinion that you posted earlier? Okay.

 

[Bisonbacker]

So your response to my post is to tell me that opinions are just opinions and then you repost another opinion that you posted earlier? Okay.

Glad I could give you a smile. Seems this discussion went overboard.

 

[jrry32]

Glad I could give you a smile. Seems this discussion went overboard.

It always does. Can't help that we're both passionate about the two QBs. I hope you stay even if Wentz is not the pick. I'll certainly be here if he is. Love the kid...just not quite as much as Goff.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Perspective.

NDSU fans feel a lot like Rodney Dangerfield. They feel like they get no respect. NDSU fans deal with this ALL the time when engaged with BCS fans.
Perspective.
-The average fan has no clue about the disparity in talent that exists within their league and certainly outside of it.
-Most "vested" fans know the FCS is a lower tier. However, they are not aware that the top end of the FCS is very similar to the BCS. That is clearly represented here with the numerous threads I've read.
-Thats ok though. How can one reasonably expect someone outside of the upper MidWest or a true FCS fan know that? - Is the Media machine going to pump a player from NDSU like they would a guy from a Major program? Nope. Doesn't help fans get educated.
-NDSU/FCS Fans. You know better. This is nothing new. Don't get so "bent" about it, you should know better. Make you mad? YES, but its nothing new. Look. I was born and raised in North Dakota. I am a proud North Dakotan.
- You need to educate, and take the high road and move on. The average person won't take the time to educate themselves.

Lets flip the coin.
-If you summarily dismiss an entire conference in making an argument you are short sited. You open yourself up to being seen as ignorant and weaken your own position. FWIW, Scouts and NFL teams know better.
-Making disparaging comments about a team or its competition is "Bush League". That's like rooting for the 14 year old boy who just punched a 9 year old. How can anyone honestly take you seriously.
-Knocking the FCS or acting like a National Championship outside of the BCS means nothing is a joke. You subject yourself to scrutiny. Why? You should know that with 22 more scholarships you should dominate every time. What if the Majors were carved out from the BCS, and given 22 more scholarships and the signing day is two weeks before the BCS? What could you expect?
-When you make statements from a position of ignorance, or limited understanding you make a weak argument and open yourself for scrutiny.

Education and a little tact go a long way in this world.

please bring on the Dangerfield avatars. That guy was hilarious!!

Okay, schedule a game vs an upper echelon Pac 12 or SEC team

Slice it as you may, you play a very very low level schedule, please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[FloridaBison]

Okay, schedule a game vs an upper echelon Pac 12 or SEC team

Slice it as you may, you play a very very low level schedule, please correct me if I'm wrong

OK. But first a couple of questions so I can better address your question.
1. .When you say schedule a game, of who do you refer?
2. Define "very very low level schedule"

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

1) NDSU

2) Most know your program is tops for FCS, and yes you do schedule games vs FBS, but let's face it beating San Diego St doesn't put "their" program on a map

 

[Mackeyser]

OC, I get your point, I do.

But you have to admit that it's just not that easy. NDSU just isn't going to GET a chance. How do we know?

Just look at all of the butt dragging that Fresno State had to deal with to get shots against top teams when they were in the WAC prior to joining the Mountain West Conference.

You can't just say, "Schedule a game against a top team". GOOD LUCK!!! No top team is going to schedule a 5 time consecutive NCAA IAA Champion because that's the definition of a trap game. That's NOT to say that they wouldn't win...not to say that a top SEC or Pac-12 team would definitely lose. Not at all..., but as I pointed out, the current bowl system really puts an impetus on scheduling cupcakes because it only takes an overall winning schedule to qualify. So having 3-4 cupcakes prior to conference play means that it's possible to have an even or even losing conference record and STILL qualify for a Bowl game.

I would take the argument against top FCS schools more seriously if top FBS schools actually scheduled tough non-conference opponents including top IAA schools (Like NDSU, Northern Iowa and bunches of others)

The power conferences have a tremendous financial interest in walling off other schools and teams, so it doesn't become about who's better, but about how they can manipulate the schedule so that they can ensure a Bowl game and hopefully keep recruiting well and make it a good bowl game or even a top bowl game (the Bowl Championship).

It's important to remember that colleges and university schedule their games by contract for several years for home and away games for alternate years. It's done like in boxing. If NDSU wanted to play Washington State of the Pac-12 for example, does ANYONE think that would happen? Anyone? Short of an Act of God? Cuz there's honestly no way a Power 5 school is gonna do that... not if they're serious about getting into a bowl game.

Thus, when special players emerge from conferences like the Mountain West or the Patriot League or some IAA conference, there's always questions of "who'd they play" as if there were options... Trust me, if teams with special players had the option to go with a tougher schedule, THEY WOULD.

 

[Logy]

1500/600 = 2.5

2.5 isn't "nearly 4x"

And NDSU beat the last 5 FBS schools they faced, so the talent disparity and "speed" is grossly exaggerated. Many FBS schools pad their schedules and try to avoid "trap" games.

Just look at Fresno State and some of the other schools from the "weaker" conferences who are damn good. They can't even GET scheduled games with the top schools because the top schools are afraid of losing. But you can bet Alabama is going to trounce East Southwest Louisiana Polytechnic University 85-0... It's a big joke. It's a HUGE part of the reasons some of these big schools don't want a playoff. You can't have some little school come in and beat you when you've already been anointed all season... especially with 22 fewer scholarships...

You can't tell me that NDSU wouldn't have beaten plenty of teams in the SEC this season. Memphis? C'mon... Vandy? Really?

You can only play against who's in front of you and I'm certain if teams would step up against NDSU, they'd play them. I know for a few years UCLA tried that... and they got SPANKED... (I'm a UCLA fan...) so they quit scheduling those tough early games.

I dunno what's gonna happen with their careers, but to say that Div IAA is appreciably slower than IA in some cases is true, but isn't always. There's overlap. There isn't this massive gap between the two.

I can't speak for Fresno State exactly, but Cal did play the top two teams from the Mountain West Conference in 2015 and beat them both. Goff sat the fourth quarter against San Diego State and his performance against Air Force had been pretty well documented. Cal's 2015 game against FCS Grambling State was 52 - 0 at the half when Cal pulled their starters and most of their twos as well. Grambling finished off its season with only two other losses.

There is a significant gap between the athleticism of the top FBS conferences and the bottom. I am sure the gap to FCS teams is even greater. Certainly FCS teams can beat FBS teams because there is more to football than simple athleticism but it is undeniable that the team with the best athletes has a significant advantage.

According to Sagarin Cal had the 10th most difficult schedule, NDSU played the 131st. NDSU had a great FCS team and Cal was fair to middling. So in conclusion I don't think that the talent level and "speed" difference that Goff played against is greatly exaggerated.

 

[Bisonbacker]

I can't speak for Fresno State exactly, but Cal did play the top two teams from the Mountain West Conference in 2015 and beat them both. Goff sat the fourth quarter against San Diego State and his performance against Air Force had been pretty well documented. Cal's 2015 game against FCS Grambling State was 52 - 0 at the half when Cal pulled their starters and most of their twos as well. Grambling finished off its season with only two other losses.

There is a significant gap between the athleticism of the top FBS conferences and the bottom. I am sure the gap to FCS teams is even greater. Certainly FCS teams can beat FBS teams because there is more to football than simple athleticism but it is undeniable that the team with the best athletes has a significant advantage.

According to Sagarin Cal had the 10th most difficult schedule, NDSU played the 131st. NDSU had a great FCS team and Cal was fair to middling. So in conclusion I don't think that the talent level and "speed" difference that Goff played against is greatly exaggerated.

You are really going to use Grambling State as the example of FCS play? That would be the same as saying the play in the FBS Sun Belt is the same as the play in the SEC. :redcard:

 

[Bisonbacker]

OC, I get your point, I do.

But you have to admit that it's just not that easy. NDSU just isn't going to GET a chance. How do we know?

Just look at all of the butt dragging that Fresno State had to deal with to get shots against top teams when they were in the WAC prior to joining the Mountain West Conference.

You can't just say, "Schedule a game against a top team". GOOD LUCK!!! No top team is going to schedule a 5 time consecutive NCAA IAA Champion because that's the definition of a trap game. That's NOT to say that they wouldn't win...not to say that a top SEC or Pac-12 team would definitely lose. Not at all..., but as I pointed out, the current bowl system really puts an impetus on scheduling cupcakes because it only takes an overall winning schedule to qualify. So having 3-4 cupcakes prior to conference play means that it's possible to have an even or even losing conference record and STILL qualify for a Bowl game.

I would take the argument against top FCS schools more seriously if top FBS schools actually scheduled tough non-conference opponents including top IAA schools (Like NDSU, Northern Iowa and bunches of others)

The power conferences have a tremendous financial interest in walling off other schools and teams, so it doesn't become about who's better, but about how they can manipulate the schedule so that they can ensure a Bowl game and hopefully keep recruiting well and make it a good bowl game or even a top bowl game (the Bowl Championship).

It's important to remember that colleges and university schedule their games by contract for several years for home and away games for alternate years. It's done like in boxing. If NDSU wanted to play Washington State of the Pac-12 for example, does ANYONE think that would happen? Anyone? Short of an Act of God? Cuz there's honestly no way a Power 5 school is gonna do that... not if they're serious about getting into a bowl game.

Thus, when special players emerge from conferences like the Mountain West or the Patriot League or some IAA conference, there's always questions of "who'd they play" as if there were options... Trust me, if teams with special players had the option to go with a tougher schedule, THEY WOULD.

Mac this is the biggest problem with the FBS. The whole "Bowl" System is flawed. The so called playoff they came up with for 4 teams is a joke. Each conference champion should be included along with however many 6 or 8 at large teams and make it a real playoffs. Money and greed ruins the ability to have a real champion. Without playoffs the current system is a joke. I know this is off topic so carry on.