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RamFan503

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Go look at attendance of each of the four major sports. I'll bet you the teams with poor records are also the teams with attendance issues.

Silly argument.
Not sure that BC is making that argument - only that the report mentions it as a possible out for Stan. How much weight it will carry is anyone's guess.

Problem is that as fans, I think we can see the correlation. I'm not sure how much the league cares if it gives them an excuse.
 

RamBill

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David Hunn joined Kevin Wheeler to talk about the latest developments with the STL Task Force, where the stadium situation stands here in St. Louis, how far along the task force is in land development plans, and why we shouldn’t be fooled by the quietness from our leaders on the stadium.

Listen to Hunn Talk Stadium Situation
 

Legatron4

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Not sure that BC is making that argument - only that the report mentions it as a possible out for Stan. How much weight it will carry is anyone's guess.

Problem is that as fans, I think we can see the correlation. I'm not sure how much the league cares if it gives them an excuse.
Good point. It's hard because you almost have to think like the NFL in these situations. And I think BC may be right if that's the case. We have some real winners running this damn league.
 

12intheBox

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If the owners were pulling that, the Rams would have more to lose by not fighting it in courts than by fighting it in courts. Litigation would be unavoidable if they went that way. It's not that the league needs the Rams, it's that going that way would be such a lengthy process that would cost millions upon millions of dollars. And for what? To prove a point? While Kroenke up and moving after the owners say no would pee pee off everybody, it would still make them a lot of money. If they went to go and fight him over it, first they lose out on the 500 million in relocation fees, then they have to spend all those millions, and if they lose they have to spend even more.

I don't think it's going to get to the point where they deny anyone, I think they're going to try to convince one of these guys not to file. If Kroenke tells them that he's going to do it and tough crap, they might fight him on it, but I think they'll maybe just up the relocation fee and let him go. They'd never try to remove him from the league, schedule, or draft because that would be a guaranteed lawsuit, that's not what they want. Teams have left their cities plenty of times against the wishes of the owners, but they've never gone that far and they wont with St Louis or San Diego or Oakland.

Very true - if the league ever pushed that button - and of course, that would be after years of warnings during construction - then it would have to end in court. There would be no turning back.

From the leagues standpoint - you give Stan notice after he snubs you that he will not be allowed to play if he ignores the league vote. In the meantime, you set up an emergency expansion team of sorts - make arrangements to rent from the Edward Jones dome for a few years. If he goes on w the move - you take all of the players contracts on the Rams and just transfer them to the new expansion team. No need to redo the schedule - the STL team is still there - they may not be the Rams, but they will have all of the same players and the NFL can then take bids for the new team. Kroenke owns a team without a league and gets to fight it out in court.

Do I see any of this really happening? No. The owners - including and perhaps especially Stan - are too smart for that. Compromise will be reached. But these are the scenarios that lawyers spend thousands of billable hours contemplating.
 

Sum1

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Not sure that BC is making that argument - only that the report mentions it as a possible out for Stan. How much weight it will carry is anyone's guess.

Problem is that as fans, I think we can see the correlation. I'm not sure how much the league cares if it gives them an excuse.
No, I don't think that is the point BC was making. He made no mention that it's an argument for the NFL to make a decision. There is no doubt the NFL will use certain points to their advantage regardless of the outcome. His point was pretty clear that it would be Stan making the claim that the team doesn't get support and that unless there is a "guarantee the team will be good forever", and that is just simply wrong.

St. Louis has supported the Rams through many very, very lean years...the noticeable dropoff has happened in the last 4 or 5 years after years of not only bad seasons, but HORRENDOUS seasons...paired with relocation rumors. Will the NFL lean on that as a reason if they let the Rams leave for a public relations standpoint? Yes...will they really use that as a mechanism to decide whats going to happen? No...they are smarter than that. The attendance has a slim part in all of this.
 

tonyl711

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Cash flow... that's what business runs on. Of course, they're never going to see those financial statements (statement of cash flows). Private "companies". That's why I'd like to know the source of these valuations and income numbers. They coming from the teams?
And you're right... gross profit (which is a line item above net income) is even less meanngful.

To me, it's this simple:
Kroenke made a promise of sorts to the people of St. Louis and MO. He ought to live up to his word.
IF he starts producing a successful product in St. Louis, the franchise will march up the ranks in terms of value and income.
While the VALUE of the franchise will likely go up in L.A. (and I think a lot of the value will be tied up in assets, like the land and building... again, paper only unless he sells... which it appears he never does?) the cash flow and net income levels are unknown to us... I'm sure Kroenke has those estimates down to a science... but how much more will he actually make?
Takes a LOT of modeling to figure that stuff out. And, no matter how much modeling you do, a lot depends on consumers... and we know how fickle THEY can be! ;)
i would like to know the financial standings for the first 13 years here when every game was a sellout, you know, the years before the worst 5 year record in the NFL happened. no winning record in 10 year will make people stay away, i dont care what city you are in. none of this was being said when they put a competitive team on the feild.
 

OldSchool

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The article literally spells out, in plain english, that the reason for the lack of enthusiasm and attendance in both the private and corporate worlds is directly attributed to on field performance. The team sucked so hard, for so long, that the majority of casual fans (read: the people the Rams are competing for entertainment dollars over with the Cards, Blues, and other things) simply lost interest.

The study shows that if the team was any good, support exists.

Also, the article says the financing calls for 150 Million from PSLs. This is more than covered by the projected 204 Million in PSL revenue

The article speculates that is the reason. It doesn't know if that's the reason because the people it surveyed weren't asked if winning or losing had an affect on their answers. Also I've seen estimates of needing $120-200 million from psl's it varies.
 

tonyl711

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Meh. Not sure they would be able to honestly. I'm not saying going rogue is a good idea or that Stan is even considering it. I just haven't seen much evidence the NFL can do anything about it when it has come up. They could have done all those things you have mentioned as far as sanctions and penalties yet - have they? Why not? I just don't buy that it was out of the goodness of their hearts. It was somehow not in their collective best interest.

I'm only speculating here as well. But history often tells us more than we want to admit.
but history has never had 3 teams eyeing a move to the same market, also never had 3 teams wanting to move, with one of the citys offering to build that team a new stadium. history rewrites itself continuosly.
 

tonyl711

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Problem is you can't guarantee a team will be good forever, so if support is that attached to the product, it's going to be hard to tell Kroenke he has to stay there and invest hundreds of millions into the city.
then he better look at attendance figures in LA when they Rams werent doing well, and when the owner let it be known she was leaving. think attendance didnt drop?
 

bluecoconuts

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No, I don't think that is the point BC was making. He made no mention that it's an argument for the NFL to make a decision. There is no doubt the NFL will use certain points to their advantage regardless of the outcome. His point was pretty clear that it would be Stan making the claim that the team doesn't get support and that unless there is a "guarantee the team will be good forever", and that is just simply wrong.

St. Louis has supported the Rams through many very, very lean years...the noticeable dropoff has happened in the last 4 or 5 years after years of not only bad seasons, but HORRENDOUS seasons...paired with relocation rumors. Will the NFL lean on that as a reason if they let the Rams leave for a public relations standpoint? Yes...will they really use that as a mechanism to decide whats going to happen? No...they are smarter than that. The attendance has a slim part in all of this.

I was more trying to point out that the market study doesn't paint a really rosy picture, and the NFL can use it to say they can't tell their second richest owner to invest there instead. Getting support for a team that is winning a lot isn't hard to do, it's getting support when they're not good that challenges arise. If the Rams have been going above and beyond what NFL teams usually do in community outreach and it's not having an effect on the support, then the NFL can (and probably will) use it to justify letting the Rams leave if it comes to that. It's easy to say that if the team was better than attendance would be better, but thus far we've seen the team go from completely abysmal to closer to middle of the pack and there hasn't been a rise in attendance. That gives the Rams and the NFL an excuse for an out.
 

tonyl711

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Cmon man, really? So fans are expected to endure 10 straight years of god awful football and still support the team like there been contenders every year? Very few people are hardcore fans like us. Unless the team is winning. Sorry but I don't agree at all with that thinking.
LA went through the same things, guess what? attendance dropped, i can only imagine how far it would have dropped with 10 losing seasons in a row.
 

bluecoconuts

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then he better look at attendance figures in LA when they Rams werent doing well, and when the owner let it be known she was leaving. think attendance didnt drop?

What does that have to do with anything? The market in LA was radically different back then, and they counted physical butts in seats vs tickets sold which inflates current numbers. You can't really compare. However when they were in Los Angeles they were only below league average twice, and even then, barely below. When they moved to Anaheim, they were typically above league average, but went up and down more.

Again though, means nothing now. They'd be better off looking at Kings, Lakers, Clippers, and Dodgers attendance numbers if they wanted to make a call.
 

tonyl711

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What does that have to do with anything? The market in LA was radically different back then, and they counted physical butts in seats vs tickets sold which inflates current numbers. You can't really compare. However when they were in Los Angeles they were only below league average twice, and even then, barely below. When they moved to Anaheim, they were typically above league average, but went up and down more.

Again though, means nothing now. They'd be better off looking at Kings, Lakers, Clippers, and Dodgers attendance numbers if they wanted to make a call.
what does it have to do with anything???? same situations same results, winning teams fans show up, losing teams fans lose interest, or is it that its only relevant if it paints St Louis in a bad way, but not if it paints LA the same way? cant have your cake and eat it too.
 

RamFan503

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but history has never had 3 teams eyeing a move to the same market, also never had 3 teams wanting to move, with one of the citys offering to build that team a new stadium. history rewrites itself continuosly.
Very true. And that may indeed be a very bug key in all this.
 

RamFan503

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No, I don't think that is the point BC was making. He made no mention that it's an argument for the NFL to make a decision. There is no doubt the NFL will use certain points to their advantage regardless of the outcome. His point was pretty clear that it would be Stan making the claim that the team doesn't get support and that unless there is a "guarantee the team will be good forever", and that is just simply wrong.

St. Louis has supported the Rams through many very, very lean years...the noticeable dropoff has happened in the last 4 or 5 years after years of not only bad seasons, but HORRENDOUS seasons...paired with relocation rumors. Will the NFL lean on that as a reason if they let the Rams leave for a public relations standpoint? Yes...will they really use that as a mechanism to decide whats going to happen? No...they are smarter than that. The attendance has a slim part in all of this.
I was saying that he was responding to the report originally - not that Stan would use it but that the NFL might lean on it if it felt it needed to.
 

bubbaramfan

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Rams attendance in LA back then had a lot to do with the stadiums they played in. The coliseum and the big "A" both sucked for fans. Still the Rams drew good crowds. SK's proposed stadium in Inglewood will be "corporate friendly" with over 200 luxury boxes, some seating over 150 and fully catered. This is an aspect that St. Louis can't possibly compete with LA. The corporate pool in LA far exceeds what's in St. Louis. The market study shows that out of 126 corporate boxes in the ED Jones Dome, only 86 were purchased last year. The market study shows corporate backing for the Rams in St. Louis is deteriorating, something I'm sure the owners at their Aug 11 meeting will consider.
 

MrMotes

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LA went through the same things, guess what? attendance dropped, i can only imagine how far it would have dropped with 10 losing seasons in a row.

I don't know how good that analogy is considering the Rams left Anaheim with the league's approval...
 

tonyl711

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Rams attendance in LA back then had a lot to do with the stadiums they played in. The coliseum and the big "A" both sucked for fans. Still the Rams drew good crowds. SK's proposed stadium in Inglewood will be "corporate friendly" with over 200 luxury boxes, some seating over 150 and fully catered. This is an aspect that St. Louis can't possibly compete with LA. The corporate pool in LA far exceeds what's in St. Louis. The market study shows that out of 126 corporate boxes in the ED Jones Dome, only 86 were purchased last year. The market study shows corporate backing for the Rams in St. Louis is deteriorating, something I'm sure the owners at their Aug 11 meeting will consider.
im pretty sure they will also take into account that we havent had a winning team in 10 years, and have an owner pretty much giving the city the middle finger and saying i want to move, do you honestly think having that many bad seasons in a row, and an owner threatening to move wouldnt affect fan and corporate support anywhere but St Louis?
 

bluecoconuts

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what does it have to do with anything???? same situations same results, winning teams fans show up, losing teams fans lose interest, or is it that its only relevant if it paints St Louis in a bad way, but not if it paints LA the same way? cant have your cake and eat it too.

How can it be relevant when we don't have consistent data gathering for the two comparisons? One of the numbers were gathered in one way the other in a different way. Plus it's different eras, the market in LA has radically changed in the past 20-30 years.
 
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