Two seasons of Tavon Austin

[Rmfnlt]

Yeah. Injuries. Warner's hand wasn't right, Faulk missed 6 games, Pace missed 6, Nutten missed 5, they lost London Fletcher, and all 3 linebackers missed time. The team as a whole only won 8 games and ranked near the bottom on both offense and defense. Who's the scapegoat there? Martz? Lovie Smith? Charlie Armey? Or, like in a lot of cases, injuries and turnover at key spots kept them from clicking on all cylinders?

Figured you'd say injuries... and it was.

So, are injuries the cause for the offensive woes?

 

[Mackeyser]

@Angry Ram Well, first off, I wasn't trying to insinuate that you weren't a knowledgeable fan. Not at all. I was responding to your previous post and that knowledgeable fans would have a reasonable basis for taking issue.

Anyway, we just totally disagree about Schotty. Which is fine. Gives us something to talk about.

I posit that in Schotty's offense at 100% with everyone healthy and executing perfectly... it's not even a top 10 offense. And it's not because of a lack of talent. It's because of the structural issues and playcalling.

Quick having a breakout year wasn't hard. He was breaking out from the "bust" label. That said, I'm super excited about him going forward presuming the shoulder heals.

Stedman Bailey should have had a stellar rookie year. In New York, he would have. This offense with the overly complicated sight adjustments, it just makes rookie WR contributions damned near impossible. For no damned reason.

GRob improved steadily, but that's a function of Coach Boo. I don't think that had one thing to do with the offense. If anything, I think the OL calls leave him exposed to choices he's missed as seen by all the free runners he's let fly at Hill.

Tre Mason is really a nice back and a nice addition to the stable. I'm glad they made him learn about blitz pickups before letting him back there. Zac Stacy's still the best at it. Frankly, I'm stoked about our young stable of RBs. I have confidence in all of them. Imagine how exciting it would be if they weren't run into Scott Wells' butt umpteen times a game for a loss...

And so many INTs and Pick-6s are due to the miscommunication between QB and WR. The WR clearly though they should be going one way and the QB saw it another. Which almost assuredly put it on the damned sight adjustment that SOMEONE missed or messed up. And before we get into the whole "ever offense has them", they don't to this degree. Some don't at all.

So while it's great that players improved this year, it doesn't preclude these same players from doing BETTER in another system.

I've likened Fisher (and by extension Schotty) to Mike Singletary. Building a great team and putting it all in place, but THIS plan just isn't a winner.

The NEXT guy with the keys will hopefully do a Harbaugh and take us to multiple Lombardis... 'cuz it's just not happening with Schotty... Schotty needed a top 3D, the best OL in football and the top rushing attack in football... and even then... he did it in the AFC East...

 

[-X-]

Figured you'd say injuries... and it was.

So, are injuries the cause for the offensive woes?

It doesn't help, IMO. When I look at teams that generally are good at producing points, and I see an anomaly in their stat lines or records, I typically look for injuries before singling out players or coaches. Like when the Packers went 1-5-1 last year without Rodgers. Or when the Cards went 6-0 with Palmer and 5-5 without. Or when the Texans went from 12-4 to 2-14 the following year (Schaub missed half a year, and so did Foster). All of those anomalies can be directly attributed to key injuries. Then I look at our team, who generally has no measurable success of any kind, and see that *they* lose key players on offense (QB, LT, WR) and wonder why people think the production should be lateral or better than they were with those same players. When in fact, it's not a very supportable argument to me.

 

[Rmfnlt]

It doesn't help, IMO. When I look at teams that generally are good at producing points, and I see an anomaly in their stat lines or records, I typically look for injuries before singling out players or coaches. Like when the Packers went 1-5-1 last year without Rodgers. Or when the Cards went 6-0 with Palmer and 5-5 without. Or when the Texans went from 12-4 to 2-14 the following year (Schaub missed half a year, and so did Foster). All of those anomalies can be directly attributed to key injuries. Then I look at our team, who generally has no measurable success of any kind, and see that *they* lose key players on offense (QB, LT, WR) and wonder why people think the production should be lateral or better than they were with those same players. When in fact, it's not a very supportable argument to me.

Well, as you say, as fans we're groping in the dark.

Call it a hunch from being a fan for over 46 years... the problem with our offense transcends injuries.

In other words, had there been no injuries, I think our offense would still underachieve.

2015 is a new year... one thing's for certain, the defense can't be counted on solely to get them over the .500 hump.

 

[-X-]

Well, as you say, as fans we're groping in the dark.

Call it a hunch from being a fan for over 46 years... the problem with our offense transcends injuries.

In other words, had there been no injuries, I think our offense would still underachieve.

2015 is a new year... one thing's for certain, the defense can't be counted on solely to get them over the .500 hump.

Well, I'm enjoying the discussion, so let's talk about it some more.
What do you think the problem is, or how do you fix it? Keeping in mind, we haven't had a good offense for a quarter decade (sans 3 or 4 years with all-world talent).

 

[Rmfnlt]

Well, I'm enjoying the discussion, so let's talk about it some more.
What do you think the problem is, or how do you fix it? Keeping in mind, we haven't had a good offense for a quarter decade (sans 3 or 4 years with all-world talent).

Me, personally... I think he is a mediocre OC. Injuries just exascerbate the problem and make getting to the root cause of the offense murkier.

Associating him to the other failed OCs is apples and oranges... making your point, perhaps: Josh McDaniels.
He tried to shove square pegs into round holes while with the Rams, IMO. Failed. Once he returned to the square holes (NE), all was fine.

So, I get that and certainly agree with it (the talent angle).
So, now we've identified two factors:
* Talent
* Injuries

Again, I just have a hunch Schottenheimer would be not get the most out of our offense even if there were no injuries... and the talent seems to be there now, for the most part.

Looking at it another way, I have this feeling that the GSOT would have been slightly above average if it were run by him... and certainly nowhere near what it eventually accomplished.

I'm not saying there aren't mitigating factors that are making his job harder... but, even if those factors were removed, he wouldn't be able to get the most out of the offense.

 

[Irish]

Well, I'm enjoying the discussion, so let's talk about it some more.
What do you think the problem is, or how do you fix it? Keeping in mind, we haven't had a good offense for a quarter decade (sans 3 or 4 years with all-world talent).

1) New OC (Shanahan, Trestman, Mornhinweg)[thanksschotty.jpg]
2) Cut Long, Bradford, Langford, Wells for cap savings, possibly let Barksdale walk
2) Top draft pick OL (Scherff?), sign C and G in FA (Iupati and Wisniewski)
3) Trade picks/players (Stacy?) for a "legit" back up QB (Garrapolo, Glennon, Mettenberger, Daniel, Shaw, Cousins, Murray)
4) If step 3 unsuccessful, sign Bradford for team friendly, heavy incentive laden deal based on him starting, and finishing, almost every game
5) Resign Britt

WR1- Britt
WR2- Quick
WR3- Bailey
WR4- Austin
RB1- Mason
RB2- Cunningham
FB- Harkey
TE- Cook
QB- ?
LT- Robinson
LG- Iupati
C- Wisniewksi
RG- Scherff/Saffold
RT- Scherff/Saffold

 

[Rmfnlt]

QB- ?

I don't think I like this part of the plan...

 

[-X-]

Again, I just have a hunch Schottenheimer would not get the most out of our offense even if there were no injuries... and the talent seems to be there now, for the most part.

That's the crux of the debate as it relates to him, and I agree that comparing him to other coordinators is a fool's errand. I try to avoid those 'discussions', because they just not applicable across time and with different teams with different players in different situations against different competition. I did, however, get involved once and it became clear to me that he hasn't really had much in the way of above-average talent to work with yet in his career. To which the argument became that he didn't elevate them to become better. To which my response was, they never did get better without him, and weren't very good before him.

So now Schotty is kind of backed into a corner again in his career. Because he hasn't really had what could have been one of his better QBs in Bradford for any extended period of time, and the rest of the skill position players he's gotten on offense have been mostly rookies who were drafted on their athletic ability and not so much for their experience in a system with NFL characteristics. Some of them never even saw a playbook before. So what's the success rate for teams comprised mostly of inexperienced players? No idea. And I have no idea because it's too difficult to find a parallel.

I get the impatience that results in wanting to get him out of here because he's a common denominator. I just don't see it as entirely his problem right now due to all of the variables we've been discussing so far. But if that's what it takes to shake things up, then I wouldn't really gripe about it either. I'm not a member of his fan club or anything. I just try to see things from these players' and coaches' perspectives.

 

[Rmfnlt]

That's the crux of the debate as it relates to him, and I agree that comparing him to other coordinators is a fool's errand. I try to avoid those 'discussions', because they just not applicable across time and with different teams with different players in different situations against different competition. I did, however, get involved once and it became clear to me that he hasn't really had much in the way of above-average talent to work with yet in his career. To which the argument became that he didn't elevate them to become better. To which my response was, they never did get better without him, and weren't very good before him.

So now Schotty is kind of backed into a corner again in his career. Because he hasn't really had what could have been one of his better QBs in Bradford for any extended period of time, and the rest of the skill position players he's gotten on offense have been mostly rookies who were drafted on their athletic ability and not so much for their experience in a system with NFL characteristics. Some of them never even saw a playbook before. So what's the success rate for teams comprised mostly of inexperienced players? No idea. And I have no idea because it's too difficult to find a parallel.

I get the impatience that results in wanting to get him out of here because he's a common denominator. I just don't see it as entirely his problem right now due to all of the variables we've been discussing so far. But if that's what it takes to shake things up, then I wouldn't really gripe about it either. I'm not a member of his fan club or anything. I just try to see things from these players' and coaches' perspectives.

Things are rarely as simple as they seem, eh?

All that aside, if he stays, Fisher has hitched his wagon to him... and, for Fisher's sake, he'll need to become what you think he might be able to become.

Gawd, I hate off seasons with this much uncertainty!

 

[Irish]

That's the crux of the debate as it relates to him, and I agree that comparing him to other coordinators is a fool's errand. I try to avoid those 'discussions', because they just not applicable across time and with different teams with different players in different situations against different competition. I did, however, get involved once and it became clear to me that he hasn't really had much in the way of above-average talent to work with yet in his career. To which the argument became that he didn't elevate them to become better. To which my response was, they never did get better without him, and weren't very good before him.

So now Schotty is kind of backed into a corner again in his career. Because he hasn't really had what could have been one of his better QBs in Bradford for any extended period of time, and the rest of the skill position players he's gotten on offense have been mostly rookies who were drafted on their athletic ability and not so much for their experience in a system with NFL characteristics. Some of them never even saw a playbook before. So what's the success rate for teams comprised mostly of inexperienced players? No idea. And I have no idea because it's too difficult to find a parallel.

I get the impatience that results in wanting to get him out of here because he's a common denominator. I just don't see it as entirely his problem right now due to all of the variables we've been discussing so far. But if that's what it takes to shake things up, then I wouldn't really gripe about it either. I'm not a member of his fan club or anything. I just try to see things from these players' and coaches' perspectives.

Can I play devil's advocate for a quick second?

It's rumored that Schottenheimer's offense is most difficult to learn by WRs, because of the complexities. What happens if the team continues to float listlessly around .500 for another season or two when contracts start coming up? If you are Austin, Quick, Bailey, guys who were drafted into Schotty's system that is way complex and because of this has not maximized your production like a lot of your contemporaries around the league who are plugged in year one and succeed, do you take the risk of resigning to play with him again, in your most lucrative years, and possibly not reach your potential as quickly as other guys in your draft class, or do you split for a more friendly offense where they can maximize your talents.

For these young wideouts, is the juice really worth the squeeze? And, if not, does the fault not ultimately land on Schottenheimer?

 

[-X-]

Things are rarely as simple as they seem, eh?

All that aside, if he stays, Fisher has hitched his wagon to him... and, for Fisher's sake, he'll need to become what you think he might be able to become.

Gawd, I hate off seasons with this much uncertainty!

It's not so uncertain anymore.

 

[Rmfnlt]

It's not so uncertain anymore.

Ummmm... I seem to recall that Fisher said there'd be no staff changes last year?

 

[-X-]

Ummmm... I seem to recall that Fisher said there'd be no staff changes last year?

I don't. When did he say that?

 

[Rmfnlt]

Like a week before he let Walton go.

 

[-X-]

Like a week before he let Walton go.

Yeah. Could be. I remember him endorsing Walton, but I don't remember him saying he wasn't going to make any changes.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Yeah. Could be. I remember him endorsing Walton, but I don't remember him saying he wasn't going to make any changes.

He did... "if you can't remember, you can certainly find out with a little research."

(just kidding with ya )

 

[-X-]

He did... "if you can't remember, you can certainly find out with a little research."

(just kidding with ya )

I'm researching it as we speak.
Looking for a direct quote.

 

[Mackeyser]

I agree, X, that the Crux of the matter is what Rmfnit said... that many of us just don't believe that even with the players at 100% and executing at 100% that Schotty's offense just wouldn't even be a top 10 offense.

Which I don't get because there are plenty of teams...maybe more than 20 teams that with perfect execution and health would have top 10 results. This team just isn't one of them and that's crappy because our ROSTER is easily a top 10 roster other than our OL... Wells and Joseph drags us down...a lot.

 

[LesBaker]

That's true, but who amongst us is qualified to critique a professional coordinator's weaknesses? Wouldn't you have to be a professional in the same field? I couldn't walk into a board meeting of the executives of Pepsi and tell them why their 3rd quarter earnings were lower than projected. All we can do, as fans, is pretend we know why something is happening and argue that. Not a single one of us knows what we're talking about when it comes to coordinating an NFL offense. All we can do is make our cases for why we believe something is or isn't the case.

Fuck no, I have the interweb, an opinion and access to a message board. And I have Google bookmarked. So I know everything.