On the importance of Pass Protection

[badnews]

This has been a confusing issue for me and I'd love to get RODs thoughts on it.

If you're a HC like Fisher who puts a premium on building a defense that can get pressure on a QB, because you believe this is the way to win games in the NFL, wouldnt that also apply to your own team?

If disrupting the QBs is such an important aspect of your team, how do you not put the same value to protecting your own?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Jeff Fisher. And I'm not claiming that his approach has been the wrong one to take.
I realize we have spent serious draft capital the last two seasons on the o-line, but even these are not guys who project as great in pass protection.
I know that if you try to build every position with equal strength you will end up mediocre all over the roster.
It's just odd to me to put such an emphasis on getting to the QB, and meanwhile treating the protection of his own QBs as less of a priority.

I don't think he has ignored the line. Jake Long wasn't entirely washed up when we signed him. Scott Wells should have been better. Greg Robinson was a big time draft pick. But here we are, with 5 first rounders on a 4 man line on defense, practicing against a bulldozing LT who needs time and pass pro technique, an often injured but solid LG, a ? Center, a rookie and a rookie.
Weird.

 

[Alan]

badnews with a chicken or the egg question:
I don't think he has ignored the line.

I'd say the fact that he didn't expend any significant draft capital until GR would make the statement lass true than what you assert. At least in my mind.

 

[fearsomefour]

It's a good question.
The signing of Long was a calculated risk. He was playing well when he went down. The whole of the line is much different if he is in there still. It allows Robinson to stay at G and Saffold at RG.
The total shift in approach is interesting and I think the Rams just couldn't stomach the cost it would take to bring in vet lineman. This is espcially important when you look at the list of Ram free agents next year.
The old cliche is the best friend a QB will ever have is a good running game. I think this is the approach. But, the running game has been bad in preseason.

 

[badnews]

I'd say the fact that he didn't expend any significant draft capital until GR would make the statement lass true than what you assert. At least in my mind.

Well... he hasn't TOTALLY ignored the line...

 

[Selassie I]

My oldest son was a teammate of Jay Gruden's son in HS. I used to sit next to him in the stands and talk ball with him a bunch. One of the questions that I had for him was very similar to the OP.

Jay coached Orlando's arena league team prior to getting into the NFL. He tried to explain how difficult it is for NFL teams to find quality offensive linemen. He told me it is next to impossible to find a quality O-lineman for the arena league because if they even have a shred of talent... the NFL will snatch em up. Just because a guy is 6'6" and 320 lbs... that doesn't mean he's going to be able to play football in the trenches. Many of the biggest dudes on earth are some of the most gentle none violent people on earth. Jay said those gentle giants were the only ones he had to choose from in the arena league. LOL

The QB position is the hardest to fill... but according to Jay (and of course he told me that is brother agreed) finding quality O-linemen was right behind the QB.... and you need 5 starters there instead of 1.

I think each and every team out there struggles to man their O-Line. We are not alone. Hopefully our plan of loading up with O-linemen in the draft this year will allow us to find a few of these diamonds in the rough... I like that plan better than signing a beat up veteran.

 

[FRO]

The big error of the Fisher/Snead regime has been their inability to build the line. With all the picks we had in the RGIII trade Greg Robinson shouldn't have been the only offensive linemen we picked in the first 3 rounds in their first three drafts.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Jake Long wasn't entirely washed up when we signed him. Scott Wells should have been better. Greg Robinson was a big time draft pick.

man had a 3 day medical exam...3 days....that's a huge red flag right there...won't even get into the Saffold fiasco...Wells was damaged goods when he arrived too...Not just in health, GB KEEPS it's own FA's...If the Packers were letting him go...Red flag right there..So Long and Wells...crazy risks...to @Alan point, why risk signing players like pead (and I like pead), joyner (hopefull for joyner), tavon (oh man, sacrificed a 2nd round pick to move up too!) when you KNOW your QB has had protection & injury concerns? Why? why gamble? Where is the sense of urgency?

The signing of Long was a calculated risk.

See above...the dude was waiting to fall apart...

While I will just have to sit back and hope (still worried about Havensteins footspeed & athleticism) these new additions pan out, it just seems that had we just spent an extra pick here or there on OL the situation wouldn't look so desperate. But we do have 5 new OL's going forward....Glad we have Brown...and if Barrett Jones returns to any semblance of who he was at Bama, Foles will be a happy camper...
Now who is Mathis lining up over this Saturday?:eek:

 

[fearsomefour]

man had a 3 day medical exam...3 days....that's a huge red flag right there...won't even get into the Saffold fiasco...Wells was damaged goods when he arrived too...Not just in health, GB KEEPS it's own FA's...If the Packers were letting him go...Red flag right there..So Long and Wells...crazy risks...to @Alan point, why risk signing players like pead (and I like pead), joyner (hopefull for joyner), tavon (oh man, sacrificed a 2nd round pick to move up too!) when you KNOW your QB has had protection & injury concerns? Why? why gamble? Where is the sense of urgency?

See above...the dude was waiting to fall apart...

While I will just have to sit back and hope (still worried about Havensteins footspeed & athleticism) these new additions pan out, it just seems that had we just spent an extra pick here or there on OL the situation wouldn't look so desperate. But we do have 5 new OL's going forward....Glad we have Brown...and if Barrett Jones returns to any semblance of who he was at Bama, Foles will be a happy camper...
Now who is Mathis lining up over this Saturday?:eek:

That is what made signing Long a calculated risk. It was the right move at the time given the alternative. As usual it seems for the Rams it did not work out.
I am concerned with Havenstein as well. There are times he looks very slow. Playing 3/4 teams where a team can line up a smaller speed rusher vs him is the main concern. I would expect a TE to be on the right side a lot this year.
Robinson plays with bad balance a lot, but, I am not too concerned with him. Saffold is fine. Brown has looked good. I think Barnes is the C, not because he is great, but because he is less susceptible to getting pushed back as Jones or Rhaney. I would switch Jones to G post haste.
I am hoping the kid from Fresno State brings something to the table. The concern is the line as a unit. Averaging 2.9 a carry is not going to get it done.

 

[blue4]

I'm the biggest Mike Martz fan around, but I was confused by his OL priorities too. I'm confused by the whole NFLs mentality on this. To my mind a quality center is vital. A guy who has to have rigid discipline, be able to stop middle blitzes, set the tone for the running game, and set the pass protection gets routinely overlooked on drat day in favor of gadget WRs and 3rd RBs who only touch the ball 5 times a game. Your guards who are the most important people who determine if you have a running game at all and people draft situational players instead. Only LT gets any respect, and that position is over valued compared to RT. Edge rushers come from that side too, yet you wouldn't think it by common knowledge. You have Orlando Pace on the left and Scooter McSlowpoke on the right I'm just blitzing the right and beating you 30-10.

 

[fearsomefour]

Just because a guy is 6'6" and 320 lbs... that doesn't mean he's going to be able to play football in the trenches. Many of the biggest dudes on earth are some of the most gentle none violent people on earth. Jay said those gentle giants were the only ones he had to choose from in the arena league. LOL

I don't think its about being violent or gentle. It is about most guys that big cannot move well. To find a guy that is physically big enough to handle the trenches in the NFL and can move quickly, even just first step quickness, is very hard to find. If you manage to find a guy that is big enough, lets say 6' 5" 320 lbs with strength and quickness....does he have enough technical skill to actually play the game at the NFL level?
Two quick examples....

Washington....I think the Rams keep him around because at 6' 2" 310 lbs (or whatever) he has enough size to play G in the NFL and seems to have enough strength. His technical game is a total mess and he often losses his blocker, gets manhandled or loses leverage. But, he is quick....dude can move. He has a pretty good first step, he is fast enough to pull and get to the second level. His combo of size and speed is, in my opinion, why he is still around and why the Rams coaches are giving him every chance to improve. He has the physical traits but not the technical game.

Grant Williams....He was never that fast although he was big. NFL Tackle big. He had the technical game down pretty well, could stone wall rushers and get enough angles in the running game to be effective. He had made a career out of his solid technical ability. When he fell off the cliff is when his recurring back issues made him play more upright. He had a hard time playing with "bend". Rushers could get "underneath" him and he lost leverage, at that point all the size in the world wouldn't matter. He was a guy who had the technique but because of a bad back lost the physical traits that made him an NFL player.

I would agree it is very tough to find a guy who has the physical traits, has the technique or can develop the technique fast enough and can stay healthy enough to be a quality starter.

 

[fearsomefour]

I'm the biggest Mike Martz fan around, but I was confused by his OL priorities too. I'm confused by the whole NFLs mentality on this. To my mind a quality center is vital. A guy who has to have rigid discipline, be able to stop middle blitzes, set the tone for the running game, and set the pass protection gets routinely overlooked on drat day in favor of gadget WRs and 3rd RBs who only touch the ball 5 times a game. Your guards who are the most important people who determine if you have a running game at all and people draft situational players instead. Only LT gets any respect, and that position is over valued compared to RT. Edge rushers come from that side too, yet you wouldn't think it by common knowledge. You have Orlando Pace on the left and Scooter McSlowpoke on the right I'm just blitzing the right and beating you 30-10.

A really good C is hard to find. Often it seems Centers become Centers because they are undersized Gs who make up for it with smarts. Like how most guys end up playing bass in a band....they were the worst of their group of friends at guitar. But, a great bass player is key to having a great band.
The emphasis on T makes sense as it is hard to get those guys help, in theory, in the passing game. In terms of pass protection I think coaches have so much of the passing game now designed to get the ball out quickly they figure they can plug in guys inside and give the QB 2 1/2 seconds to get the ball to that gadget WR who can then turn a 10 yard pass into a 30 yard gain.
I agree with you though.

 

[GabesHorn]

Rob Havenstein lost so much belly fat in such a short period of time with just pure dedication and has'nt stopped developing the Pro size and standards in weight room rebuilding his core and adding the best muscle weight in all the right places. His leg work is slowly improving and I think its his punch and hand fighting ability that need the most work and technique as DL , especially pass rushing specialist are just that as they work so hard like our Aaron Donald who has such great hand fighting skills not found in players his age.

I believe Rob Havenstein will just keep getting better as the season allows him to learn from every challenge he comes against. No I'm not related to Rob. I wanted the Penn State OT over our Wisconsin ORT. I've seen so much dedication as so many pictures show the unreal physical change in such a short time as he just keeps looking more and more chiseled. His face looks like a hard core Marine now. Baby fat gone. Just needs his super long arms to be continually built bigger. Its not easy and developing a much stronger initial punch that will make him a pro's pro. We got a real hard worker with a great mindset and head on his shoulders. I don't think Battle could catch him as Rob is'nt gonna stop improving to look back over his shoulder to see who is coming.

Long arms doing very heavy bench presses to develope your pectorials need your wrists also to be super wrapped or developed. As he slides and delivers accurate super fast punches that are strong enough to REDIRECT the pass rusher. It takes time and he is still so young and YES still growing the good way. Love the pick of this lunch pail guy. He is a true throwback who will work on all of his slow techniques until he is highly respected league wide. Then to think J. Brown drafted as an OT from Louisville moved straight to ORG has been AWESOME and working next to Rob we have less to worry about with our two rookies as long as they stay healthy. Its our center spot and depth we truly need to worry about along with keeping Saffolds shoulders healthy through the playoffs and not allow our OLG backups onto the field EVER! Please prepare someone instead of Washington NOW! I'm not kidding either. Reynolds or Wichman get ready NOW!!! Rob Havenstein will play many many years for us constantly getting better and better. What a find. His transition so far in such a short time proves we got a real Diamond in the rough! He won't relax and stop getting better till he becomes a PB'er.

 

[Selassie I]

I don't think its about being violent or gentle. It is about most guys that big cannot move well. To find a guy that is physically big enough to handle the trenches in the NFL and can move quickly, even just first step quickness, is very hard to find. If you manage to find a guy that is big enough, lets say 6' 5" 320 lbs with strength and quickness....does he have enough technical skill to actually play the game at the NFL level?
Two quick examples....

Washington....I think the Rams keep him around because at 6' 2" 310 lbs (or whatever) he has enough size to play G in the NFL and seems to have enough strength. His technical game is a total mess and he often losses his blocker, gets manhandled or loses leverage. But, he is quick....dude can move. He has a pretty good first step, he is fast enough to pull and get to the second level. His combo of size and speed is, in my opinion, why he is still around and why the Rams coaches are giving him every chance to improve. He has the physical traits but not the technical game.

Grant Williams....He was never that fast although he was big. NFL Tackle big. He had the technical game down pretty well, could stone wall rushers and get enough angles in the running game to be effective. He had made a career out of his solid technical ability. When he fell off the cliff is when his recurring back issues made him play more upright. He had a hard time playing with "bend". Rushers could get "underneath" him and he lost leverage, at that point all the size in the world wouldn't matter. He was a guy who had the technique but because of a bad back lost the physical traits that made him an NFL player.

I would agree it is very tough to find a guy who has the physical traits, has the technique or can develop the technique fast enough and can stay healthy enough to be a quality starter.

Violent and Gentle may not be the best description, but playing football at any position requires contact. Many times it's violent contact. Some of the biggest dudes on the planet are wired to avoid ALL physical contact. The gentle giant guy... we all have known guys like that. They stick out in any crowd because of their size... many times coaches beg guys like this to play football. They have many of the physical attributes needed,,, but they hate the contact the sport requires.

Guys like the ones you listed find employment in the NFL because the physical skill is easy to see. Why is it that so many of these guys don't pan out when the physical skills are there?

Point is, it takes more than just the physical part of the game to succeed. As you said though, it is very hard to find guys with the required physical skill set... but when an NFL team finds one, many times they hold onto them waaayyyyy too long just on the physical skill set alone. The leftovers that the NFL leaves for leagues like the arena league are very few.

There are loads of O-linemen earning paychecks in the NFL... and many of them are considered poor players. Many of them... but they're out on the field on Sundays. It's extremely hard to find badass O-linemen. Every team STRUGGLES with it.

 

[Fatbot]

The list of Fisher paradoxes (paradoxii? Fisherisms?) is always interesting to me:

- Obtain more and more small, quick DTs because they can out-quick larger, slower OL. Then obtain new OL that are all larger & slower.

- Gather 5 first round DL to build an elite pass rushing unit more than capable of pressuring and destroying a QB with a 4-man rush. Then blitz every play anyway.

- Preach conservative offense. Then spend a high 1st round pick, trade away draft picks, and spend millions of free agent dollars on "weapons" and "playmakers" with questionable roles in a conservative offense.

- Preach a power running game identity, then obtain no blocking TEs or lead blocking FBs, and rave about having "hybrid TEs" instead.

- Play conservative field position, punt on 4th down inside the opponents 40 despite having a kicker that can make a 70yard FG. Then fake punt from your own 20 to gamble a win-loss on one trick play.

- Rumble to 200 yards rushing behind two/three TE sets for 59 minutes, 56 seconds. Then run an empty backfield fade pass on the final play of the game.

As for this particular paradox, I think if you know you are going to be forced to start rookie OL, it makes sense to get ones that are more natural run blockers than gifted pass blockers. I think there's the thought that coaching/development can influence pass blocking more than run blocking. Besides scheming to throw shorter passes, or moving the pocket, etc., pass blocking is technique/art when 1v1, and recognition/discipline to keep your link in the chain when they are throwing all sorts of stunts at you, things that can get coached up. It's something that jells over time no matter what the initial talent.

Meanwhile run blocking is something that can translate instantly to the NFL since it has more of a natural ability/attitude to it. Of course there's elements that must be coached to it as well, but at the end of the day, to be a great run blocker comes from within, you have to really enjoy mauling someone, love the game and your role in what that last extra block means to your team -- you can't coach character or love of the game.

 

[LACHAMP46]

I am hoping the kid from Fresno State brings something to the table.

Wichmann can play....very hungry guy...physical too...just watch...He was my surprise starter at guard, then Brown came out of nowhere...I thought/heard the Louisville O-Line was garbage...that other guard in the pros looks good too...

Just needs his super long arms to be continually built bigger. Its not easy and developing a much stronger initial punch that will make him a pro's pro..........Long arms doing very heavy bench presses to develope your pectorials need your wrists also to be super wrapped or developed. It takes time and he is still so young and YES still growing the good way.

Steroids....err, go to Germany/Sweeden with Kobe this offseason:heh::lifting:
agreed....but it'll take time...hope he goes up against Mathis this Saturday...should be a great look

 

[fearsomefour]

Wichmann can play....very hungry guy...physical too...just watch...He was my surprise starter at guard, then Brown came out of nowhere...I thought/heard the Louisville O-Line was garbage...that other guard in the pros looks good too...

Steroids....err, go to Germany/Sweeden with Kobe this offseason:heh::lifting:
agreed....but it'll take time...hope he goes up against Mathis this Saturday...should be a great look

I saw Wichmann play several times when he was at Fresno St. He would seem to fit the physical G style Fisher said he wants. I am looking forward to seeing him play.

 

[fearsomefour]

- Preach a power running game identity, then obtain no blocking TEs or lead blocking FBs, and rave about having "hybrid TEs" instead.

Kendricks is a good blocker and Harkey can be a good blocking FB.
I would argue that most really good TE posses "hybrid" skills.

 

[LACHAMP46]

I saw Wichmann play several times when he was at Fresno St. He would seem to fit the physical G style Fisher said he wants. I am looking forward to seeing him play.

Agreed.....Watched the SC game twice...he belongs....saw a couple games when Carr was there..He's solid...

 

[blue4]

A really good C is hard to find. Often it seems Centers become Centers because they are undersized Gs who make up for it with smarts. Like how most guys end up playing bass in a band....they were the worst of their group of friends at guitar. But, a great bass player is key to having a great band.
The emphasis on T makes sense as it is hard to get those guys help, in theory, in the passing game. In terms of pass protection I think coaches have so much of the passing game now designed to get the ball out quickly they figure they can plug in guys inside and give the QB 2 1/2 seconds to get the ball to that gadget WR who can then turn a 10 yard pass into a 30 yard gain.
I agree with you though.

I was starting to get furious when you said bass players are the worst at guitar, but you totally redeemed yourself in the end.

Bass rules!

Total disclosure I am a bass player. Perhaps that's why I "get" centers and guards. Never made that connection. Lol

 

[Memento]

Don't forget about Donnal. He may not be able to play left tackle, but a guy who can play three positions (RT, LG, RG) is always valuable on the bench. And Battle makes an excellent swing tackle. And Wichmann could be a solid guard.

We just need a center who will step up. I like the qualities of the ones that we have, but we may need to draft a center in next year's class. There's going to be a lot of good ones.