Late to the party receiver scouting

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jrry32

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I agree with leoram on Kupp.

Even in the post day two draft interview, while McVay said that they move WRs around, he even stated that Kupp is more in the mold of a slot WR. And Snead talked about how his agility work at the combine matched up to the elite slot WRs in the league.

IMO, the Rams would be nuts to move Kupp outside too much when he has the potential to be so huge of a match up problem for defenses from the slot.

Look at it this way. Kupp vs. someone like Lamarcus Joyner in the slot vs. Kupp vs. Trumaine Johnson or another team's top CB outside. If these guys were on opposing teams and you were the defensive coordinator, which match up would keep you up at nights? I hope they don't try to stick Az Hakim (match up problem slot WR) outside like the Lions tried to do years ago.

I like both those matchups for Kupp. Kupp's quickness would give Tru problems while his size would give Joyner problems. Move Kupp around and try to get each WR on the team the best possible matchup.

As far as Reynolds, after watching a few Redskins games, I came away really encouraged with how much McVay really likes to use bunch WR sets to back off defenders and give his players a better chance. Never understood why the Rams didn't do it more.:palm:

I remember when Tavon took that drag route to the house when we utilized a bunch set against Indy. You're right that we didn't use bunch sets nearly often enough.
 

leoram

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
@jrry,

I get it. There are very few guys in the history of the NFL who peaked as rookies. However, the way your post was worded gave the impression that you don't think they're going to make an impact this year. The point I'm making is that Kupp will make an impact this year. There is no someday with him. He's not going to peak this year, but he's going to make an impact for us.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with you on Kupp's ability, my OP had only one caveat as to his effectiveness THIS YEAR: that it will take time to develop the necessary chemistry with Goff. You will see that was my only concern, and I believe that is valid.

As to the Patriot comparison, I was only lending perspective. Offseason hype should be tempered by seasoned realities. Even that SB team looked like dooky in the first half. This is a complex game with special athletes all across the board. If Kupp gets more than 700 yards receiving this year, I will buy your Super Bowl ticket in 2019.
 

jrry32

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While I agree with you on Kupp's ability, my OP had only one caveat as to his effectiveness THIS YEAR: that it will take time to develop the necessary chemistry with Goff. You will see that was my only concern, and I believe that is valid.

It'll happen quickly for him because of the way he sees the field and understands the game. He'll be where he's supposed to be.

As to the Patriot comparison, I was only lending perspective. Offseason hype should be tempered by seasoned realities. Even that SB team looked like dooky in the first half. This is a complex game with special athletes all across the board. If Kupp gets more than 700 yards receiving this year, I will buy your Super Bowl ticket in 2019.

There's no need to do that when Kupp produces more than 700 yards this year. WRs who produced 700+ yards in their rookie season since 2010:
http://pfref.com/tiny/m3LiJ

It's very doable if you have the opportunities. I feel confident that Kupp will. Hell, even Chris Givens nearly did it:
http://www.nfl.com/player/chrisgivens/2535634/profile
 

Rambitious1

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So what is this coaching staff not allowed to do that previous ones could? Draft a qb number one? Trade up for a WR? Run a 4-3? Can we have a list that meets your approval?

Hmmmm very snarky. I like it.
I didn't say they could not do it, or anything even resembling that.
I posted that given the state of affairs of this organization it was not the wisest move.
Hence - my sarcasm - but thank you anyway for your input.

P.S. Also, to your point, can we get a list of posts that meets your approval? :sneaky:
 

Rambitious1

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Other than Everett, who are the upside picks? Ebukam? We took a lot of high character, experienced players this year. The vast majority of our draft picks played in the Senior Bowl. Also, your post wasn't 100% factual. It was an opinion.

What's wrong with a "project?" As I've demonstrated before, Jeff Fisher had a ton of success drafting projects on defense, especially at safety (which happened to be the position he came up coaching). McVay is an offensive-minded coach who came up coaching TEs; it makes a lot of sense to trust him with that position.

It was factual....with opinion mixed in. :whistle:
My point was to the current state of affairs of the organization.

Fisher did have some success with that on defense.
And failure with it on offense. Hence my point.....another 'project' on offense?
It was a post that was to organization status and situational drafting.
Sometimes (depending upon the status of your organization) it may not be a good idea to draft projects with a high pick.
That's all.

I'm just not willing to blindly accept anything and everything the organization does as an absolutely smart, correct, wise decision.
That's all. Basically I'm saying I'm not a lemming.
 

Ram65

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As for Everett, he's very raw. I agree. But McVay will scheme him onto the field like he did with Jordan Reed. Everett is a little more raw than Reed, but McVay can still find ways to get him touches.

I've said that a few times about Everett. Glad you agree about McVay finding ways to get Everett on the field.

One of the many reasons I liked Gupp is because he is ready to play. We all know by now he has a coach like mind set. He is a technician at WR. He will quickly learn the playbook and be competing for a starting spot. At this point all WRs are learning a new playbook. Woods will start for sure. Tavon should start or see a lot of playing time. Whats left are rookies and two year players more or less.
 

Memphis Ram

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I like both those matchups for Kupp. Kupp's quickness would give Tru problems while his size would give Joyner problems. Move Kupp around and try to get each WR on the team the best possible matchup.

He'll probably make a few plays, but as far as Kupp's having consistent success outside, straight up, I'll believe it when I see it. If I were an opposing DC, I'd have my CBs play with inside leverage bumping him within 5 yards and force him to make a play over the top or outside.
 
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rdw

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Hmmmm very snarky. I like it.
I didn't say they could not do it, or anything even resembling that.
I posted that given the state of affairs of this organization it was not the wisest move.
Hence - my sarcasm - but thank you anyway for your input.

P.S. Also, to your point, can we get a list of posts that meets your approval? :sneaky:
Yeah, it was a little snarky. I chalk that up to it being really early in the morning and typing from my phone..

Hmm... I'll work on that list for ya! :D
 

Rambitious1

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Yeah, it was a little snarky. I chalk that up to it being really early in the morning and typing from my phone..

Hmm... I'll work on that list for ya! :D

No need.
I definitely returned the snark. :sneaky:
At the end of the day, we are all passionate about our team.

It's all good bro....I'm sorry for blowing static from my end......
 

jrry32

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He'll probably make a few plays, but as far as Kupp's having consistent success outside, straight up, I'll believe it when I see it. If I were an opposing DC, I'd have my CBs play with inside leverage bumping him within 5 yards and force him to make a play over the top or outside.

And if I were the opposing OC, I'd thank you for that.

What's stopping Kupp from being successful? Certainly not his size, speed, route running, hands, agility, acceleration, strength, or football IQ. That leaves us with what...speed? The CB you just mentioned, Trumaine Johnson, ran a 4.61 40 at the Combine. Yet, Trumaine is a pretty darn good outside CB. Obviously, speed isn't the end all be all outside.
 

jrry32

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It was factual....with opinion mixed in. :whistle:
My point was to the current state of affairs of the organization.

Fisher did have some success with that on defense.
And failure with it on offense. Hence my point.....another 'project' on offense?

This isn't Fisher. This is a guy who actually knows offense. Fisher didn't know offense and hired incompetent underlings. It's no surprise that our offensive picks didn't pan out. The system for them to succeed in was lacking.

It was a post that was to organization status and situational drafting.
Sometimes (depending upon the status of your organization) it may not be a good idea to draft projects with a high pick.
That's all.

I agree. Sometimes, it is a good idea. This is a situation where it is a good idea. Fisher drafting offensive projects was a bad idea. McVay drafting a project TE is a good idea.

I'm just not willing to blindly accept anything and everything the organization does as an absolutely smart, correct, wise decision.
That's all. Basically I'm saying I'm not a lemming.

Neither am I. But I'm also going to trust McVay with TEs. I would trust Jeff Fisher with safeties. Both have earned the benefit of the doubt there.
 

Merlin

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Everett is definitely a project but he's a pick that I have warmed to as I've gone back and made better note of his ability to break tackles and net YAC. Not going to be a primary option or impact guy in year one, but down the road he might be special in this offense, so it's a waste of time to wring our hands about it. I'm over it and hoping the guy gets some redzone and special stuff to be worked in this year then next year beast out.

And re: TE there is little doubt in my mind that Higbee can get 'er done. Only concern I have with him is his health. But given that, the guy has some rare size/hands/radius and good instincts and under a coach like McVay that can get a guy a lot of production. By the time this season is over we're going to be very happy with the TE room.

Re: Kupp I am going to enjoy some folks eating crow once they see what he can do. He was one of several wideouts who were underrated in this draft and while he wasn't my favorite one there where they took him I have full appreciation for why they took him and think he's going to do very well here. The guy is going to get open deep from time to time simply because DBs are going to be working so hard to roll up tight and shut down his crisp routes; he has the speed to beat a good CB deep if they relax even a little bit so don't sweat that IMO.
 

Memphis Ram

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And if I were the opposing OC, I'd thank you for that.

What's stopping Kupp from being successful? Certainly not his size, speed, route running, hands, agility, acceleration, strength, or football IQ. That leaves us with what...speed? The CB you just mentioned, Trumaine Johnson, ran a 4.61 40 at the Combine. Yet, Trumaine is a pretty darn good outside CB. Obviously, speed isn't the end all be all outside.

I believe Kupp could be very successful. From the slot. But, on the outside, I believe that he'll be merely average, and his talents wasted, minus those times where he gets help from McVay's schemes and/or zone coverage.

And No. Speed isn't the end all of playing outside.

BTW, Josh Norman ran a slower 40 time than both of them. But, I'm guessing the difference between Josh Norman & Trumaine Johnson vs. someone like Kupp is the former aren't trying to run away from anyone while being bumped and grabbed (not always called) by NFL defenders with better football IQs than most college kids.

And I still say that while Kupp may have an edge coming out of college via football IQ and work ethic, he and Austin Pettis are very similar athletes coming out of college. Very similar. But, of course, people will read this and mistakenly believe that I'm saying that they'll have the same overall results in their careers again, but what they hey?

Let's face it. We are not going to agree on this just like we didn't agree on speedy Tavon a few years back. Only time will tell.
 
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Mackeyser

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@jrry,

I get it. There are very few guys in the history of the NFL who peaked as rookies. However, the way your post was worded gave the impression that you don't think they're going to make an impact this year. The point I'm making is that Kupp will make an impact this year. There is no someday with him. He's not going to peak this year, but he's going to make an impact for us.

While I agree with you on Kupp's ability, my OP had only one caveat as to his effectiveness THIS YEAR: that it will take time to develop the necessary chemistry with Goff. You will see that was my only concern, and I believe that is valid.

As to the Patriot comparison, I was only lending perspective. Offseason hype should be tempered by seasoned realities. Even that SB team looked like dooky in the first half. This is a complex game with special athletes all across the board. If Kupp gets more than 700 yards receiving this year, I will buy your Super Bowl ticket in 2019.[/QUOTE]

Ooh! Ooh! Save this post!!! LOL
 

jrry32

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I believe Kupp could be very successful. From the slot. But, on the outside, I believe that he'll be merely average, and his talents wasted, minus those times where he gets help from McVay's schemes and/or zone coverage.

And No. Speed isn't the end all of playing outside.

BTW, Josh Norman ran a slower 40 time than both of them. But, I'm guessing the difference between Josh Norman & Trumaine Johnson vs. someone like Kupp is the former aren't trying to run away from anyone while being bumped and grabbed (not always called) by NFL defenders with better football IQs than most college kids.

Yep, he did. Sherman ran in the 4.6s too. Joe Haden ran around that range as well.

No, CBs are playing catch up at every stage. They aren't trying to run away from them. Instead, they're trying to stick with a guy down the field while simultaneously trying to prevent him from catching short passes.

Kupp doesn't need to run away from them. All he needs to do is get them moving in the wrong direction or get them come out of their backpedal a split second too late or freeze them at the right time or push off at the right time or track the ball better than they do.

Do you remember when Brandon Lloyd played here in 2011? Do you remember the season he had in 2011? Do you remember him being an absolute nightmare to guard on deeper routes? Lloyd checked into the Combine at 6'0" 185 and ran a 4.63 40. Lloyd was a nightmare to guard deep because he was crafty as hell in the way he ran his routes. CBs struggled to anticipate what route he was running and underestimated his speed. This led to them being late out of their backpedal. When the difference between a 4.6 guy and a 4.4 guy is one step, all you need is that guy's reaction to be a split second off.

Brandon Lloyd really could have been a special player if he loved football because his body control, movement skills, and football IQ were all top notch. Kupp has all of those things and loves the game (in my opinion).

I don't care where Kupp lines up. But I have no doubt that if he's a terror in the slot, he'll be able to terrorize NFL CBs outside. I've compared him to Keenan Allen many times. When you can do things like this:
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The thing about guys like Allen and Kupp is that they beat you so badly in those first 10 yards that it doesn't matter that they only run a 4.6/4.7 40.

Truth is that Kupp's success will rely on Goff. If Goff is as good as I think he is, Kupp will be great. Great route runners need precision passers. They consistently get open using timing.

And I still say that while Kupp may have an edge coming out of college via football IQ and work ethic, he and Austin Pettis are very similar athletes coming out of college. Very similar. But, of course, people will read this and mistakenly believe that I'm saying that they'll have the same overall results in their careers again, but what they hey?

He's also similar athletically to Antonio Brown and Keenan Allen since we're just tossing out comparisons but not saying anything.

Let's face it. We are not going to agree on this just like we didn't agree on speedy Tavon a few years back. Only time will tell.

We definitely won't. I'm not going to pigeonhole Kupp.
 

shaunpinney

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I disagree. Kupp is ready to play. His releases and routes are already NFL caliber. He sees the field pre-snap like a QB and has a QB's understanding of the game. I remember how incredible it was having Marshall Faulk because he was a HB with a QB's mind. Kupp is similar in that regard. He's incredibly technically and mentally advanced for his age.(and that's taking into account the fact that he's an older rookie) I feel very confident that he'll be ready to step onto the field as a starter early in the year.

As for Everett, he's very raw. I agree. But McVay will scheme him onto the field like he did with Jordan Reed. Everett is a little more raw than Reed, but McVay can still find ways to get him touches.

I've said it on other threads I think Kupp is the most pro-ready WR in this year's draft. He will DEFINITELY add value and production this year. I also believe that Everett will also contribute, I know TE's develop slower in the NFL but knowing that Everett was McVay's man - he will get him ready to play and already knows HOW to use him.
 

shaunpinney

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Kupp doesn't need to run away from them. All he needs to do is get them moving in the wrong direction or get them come out of their backpedal a split second too late or freeze them at the right time or push off at the right time or track the ball better than they do.

Kupp is already a master at this - it's what makes him so damn good. He knows his own athletic limitations, but also knows his opponents and he plays them. He only needs a step and he's made the catch.

Do you remember when Brandon Lloyd played here in 2011? Do you remember the season he had in 2011? Do you remember him being an absolute nightmare to guard on deeper routes? Lloyd checked into the Combine at 6'0" 185 and ran a 4.63 40. Lloyd was a nightmare to guard deep because he was crafty as hell in the way he ran his routes. CBs struggled to anticipate what route he was running and underestimated his speed. This led to them being late out of their backpedal. When the difference between a 4.6 guy and a 4.4 guy is one step, all you need is that guy's reaction to be a split second off.

One of my favourite Rams receivers in recent years - he totally changed our offense - wanted him to stick around but there was something up with his character (in the locker room) if I remember correctly...

I hope that Kupp becomes the heartbeat of tis team. I know people say its the QB that is the core of the team, and yes I get that, but I think that Kupp's football brain, his instinct and his ability will make Goff's job easier. Kupp seems to read D's well, gets the better of DB's because he 'works them out' - he will be a nice security blanket for Goff.
 

Memphis Ram

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@jrry32

IMO, Both Brandon Lloyd and Keenan Allen were / are more explosive the Kupp and Antonio Brown is quicker / more shifty. I see exactly what you are saying. I just don't see what you are seeing.
 

Memphis Ram

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Hope he becomes a superstar, but I really think previously posted piece hits the nail right on the head.


https://www.thefantasyfootballers.c...roviding-context-cooper-kupps-nfl-projection/

Viewing the NFL Draft as anything but a process would be a mistake. Yes, it culminates in a singular event where the teams “put pen to paper” and select college players to join their organization, but there is so much that must play out to get to that moment.

Prior to the three days that stretch out from the end of April into the early days of May, there are many pivotal points in the draft process that take place and create peaks valleys and crests to the outlook of the players to be selected.

There’s the college football season, where prospects put on film what NFL scouting departments will judge them by. The declaration process comes next, where underclassmen join the pool of seniors and create movement in all the stocks of all involved. During the All-Star circuit, especially at the Senior Bowl, the few granted the privilege to be there get to take the first step in the pre-draft circuit to show off their abilities ahead of the rest of the class. At the NFL Scouting Combine, the majority of the rest players destined to get picked in the draft join those already featured at the Senior Bowl, and there, they’ll all be subjected to putting hard data behind the athleticism each possesses. After that comes pro days, team visits and the ever ongoing exercise of scrubbing every nook and cranny in the name of gathering information on all these young men.

To strongly overreact to just one of the many events on the pre-draft calendar is to ignore the realities of the natural ebb and flow when working with incomplete data. It’s not all about the Senior Bowl, the Scouting Combine or the film; it’s about the puzzles pieces fitting together throughout the process as a whole.

Something of this ilk appeared to take place with Eastern Washington wide receiver Cooper Kupp in the early goings of the postseason. After a dominant statistical run at Eastern Washington, Kupp traveled to Mobile, Alabama and by many accounts, put on a show at the Senior Bowl. His week there sent ripple effects throughout the draft world, causing many to place him among the top-five wide receivers in this class and perhaps even elevate his stock to that of a late Round 1 to early Round 2 prospect.

In my opinion, that seemed brought on by an overreaction to a singular event in the process, whereas the on-field players already profiled for Reception Perception like Chris Godwin and Carlos Henderson are clearly superior. Those players are in the midst of getting their dues as more analysts tune into Henderson’s tape and Godwin woke the world up with his combine.

At that same combine, Kupp tested in the 23rd percentile for the broad jump, the seventh percentile for the vertical and the 14th percentile for the 40-yard dash, per MockDraftable. Seeing his lack of athletic ability in comparison to some of his peers should cause the football world to ask if they put “the cart before the horse” on his NFL projection.

The key to understanding Cooper Kupp’s evaluation is in the art of contextualizing his projection with what he’s capable of offering an NFL team. Reception Perception can help us achieve that goal.

Alignment and Target Data
Games sampled: Washington State, North Dakota State, UC Davis, North Colorado, Portland State, Youngstown State

Let’s get right down to the most crucial reality of Kupp’s evaluation: he’s a slot receiver, through and through. In the six games sampled for Reception Perception, Kupp took 78.6 percent of his snaps from the slot. Over the last two draft classes, the prospect average is 20.1 percent of snaps taken on the interior. The only receiver sampled in that span who lined up in the slot more was UNC’s Ryan Switzer with 86.9 percent.

If his collegiate team didn’t even believe Kupp’s best position was as an outside receiver, what can we possibly base a belief that he will be anything but a big slot receiver in the NFL? His lack of measurable athleticism shown at the NFL Scouting Combine gives us a clue as to why that’s his most likely pro position. This is not to be taken as a negative, but it helps us put a value on the player.

As clear as it is that Kupp must be a slot receiver at the NFL level, it’s just as apparent that he’s one of the most reliable players in the draft class. Eastern Washington’s quarterbacks targeted Kupp on 29.2 percent of his 212 routes run in his Reception Perception sample. He caught a pass on 23.6 percent of them. His 5.6 percent differential between those two metrics was the lowest number of any prospect charted this year, showing that he was proficient at turning usage into production. In addition, his 1.6 drop rate was also the lowest in this class.

Success Rate vs. Coverage
It feels awfully aggressive to pigeonhole a receiver into a role before he’s taken an NFL snap. However, Kupp’s Reception Perception Success Rate vs. Coverage scores bear out that reality.

Naturally, as an inside receiver, Kupp faced far more zone coverage than he did isolated man-to-man defenders. Kupp registered 124 attempts against man coverage in his sampled games and did a solid job at getting open. His 77.4 percent success rate vs. coverage when facing zones is within the two-year prospect average. Kupp shows an ability to sift through zones and will assist his team as a chain mover against that brand of coverage in the NFL.

The struggles for Kupp come when asked to beat tight man coverage, and it is within these metrics we find the questions about his success as an outside receiver at the pro level. Kupp’s 59.1 percent success rate vs. man coverage is just above the 23rd percentile among prospects charted the last two years. Similarly, his success rate vs. press coverage of 52.3 percent checks in below the 27th percentile.

It’s a stretch to believe a player, no matter how productive on paper they may be, that struggled to consistently beat man coverage at a low-level of collegiate football will be able to transition to the outside in the NFL. Technical prowess is essential for most wide receivers to win as route-runners in the league, but even the most proficient technicians can be rendered moot when they lack the tangible athletic gifts of an average NFL receiver. After the scouting combine, we know Kupp falls into that group.

Route Data
As with most slot receivers, Cooper Kupp came with a narrow route portfolio at the collegiate level. He was primarily asked to run short to intermediate routes with the design to get him into open space.

Cooper-Kupp-route-percentage1-template.png


The four routes that Kupp ran above the two-year prospect average were the screen at nine percent, the slant at 25.9 percent, the dig at 8.5 percent and the flat at 14.2 percent.

Outside of those patterns, Kupp has little exposure on out-breaking patterns or in the vert game. Kupp’s post route percentage was right at the two-year prospect average, but he rarely ran the nine or corner route. Observing how often he ran each pattern helps add a needed extra layer of context to his route success rate vs coverage chart.

Cooper-Kupp-Reception-Perception-success-rate-template.png


Despite running the slant and flat routes at a rate that was above the two-year prospect average and making up around 40 percent of his route run, Kupp did not manage to post an above average success rate vs. coverage score on either pattern. If Kupp is to become a reliable chain-moving receiver out of the slot at the NFL-level, he will need to perform better as a separator on those two patterns. Players like Jordan Matthews, who operate in a similar role to Kupp’s best-projected usage plan, do their best work on those routes.

Outside of the screen, the only route that Kupp posted an above average route percentage and success rate vs. coverage score was the dig. His performance on that pattern is crucial as it will assist him in picking up chunk yardage in the intermediate areas of the field. The same can be said for the out-route, which he ran at a rate in line with the two-year average.

His above average success rate vs. coverage scores on the nine and comeback should come with an asterisk, considering how infrequently Kupp ran those routes. His comeback route percentage was less than one percent.

None of the route or success rate vs. coverage data from Reception Perception is to say that he’s a worthless NFL projection or a player who cannot function at the next level. What this does is provide some sobering context to a draft stock that seemed inflated coming off a strong Senior Bowl week and give some clarity to his future outlook. Nevertheless, there are two areas where despite his lack of separation ability, he can help an NFL team.

Ancillary Metrics
Cooper Kupp posted an 81.8 contested catch conversion rate over his Reception Perception sample, the same figure Alshon Jeffery posted through his 2016 NFL season. It was a superior rate to that of Clemson wide receiver Mike Williams, who is widely regarded as a dominant catch point wideout.

Kupp’s frame and strength are complementary to his excellent hands. He is a strong receiver in traffic who can pluck the ball away from his frame even when well covered. His vertical jump illuminates the reality that he isn’t an elite leaper, but he offsets that by an ability to shield defenders.

Another area where Kupp showed up in a positive fashion was his solid ability after the catch. His high usage rate on flat and slant routes frequently put the receiver in space, totaling 11.3 percent of his routes in whole. He broke a single tackle on 54.2 percent of his “in space” attempts, which was the highest rate among all wideouts charted this year. The spectacular plays were in short supply, as he broke multiple tackles one just 4.2 percent of his “in space” attempts but he’s clearly a threat to make the first defender miss.

Moving Forward
It’s fair to say that the hype on Cooper Kupp’s NFL projections certainly got out of control in the weeks following the Senior Bowl. His lack of ability as a separator and a player that can win outside are clearly illuminated in his Reception Perception evaluation. He must be confined to a big slot receiver position at the pro level, no more and no less.

However, he does bring some attributes to the table, such as his ability to win contested passes, overall reliability and solid skills at breaking tackles after the catch. With those in tow, he can slide into a spot as a role player for the team that selects him in the NFL Draft. Yet, with below average athleticism and questions about his ability to separate from coverage, he’s a selection best made on Day 3. With that context blanketed over his stock, he becomes a much more tenable pro prospect.