Fitting Tavon into the run heavy offense

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jap

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I have hoped that Tavon, even more so than Sted, would benefit the most from association with Isaac Bruce. Isaac had the ability---much like Gayle Sayers, Barry Sanders, and Tavon himself---to make 90-degree cuts at top speed. Tavon certainly has the physical gifts to handle what Isaac could do; so one must question whether he has the mental savvy.

When Isaac came off the line of scrimmage, he had a way of running that at least one scout described as "gliding" that literally scared the crap! out of opposing DB's because they couldn't tell how fast he was moving. Press him too close, and he could turn on the jets and that electric cutting ability and be past you in a blink of an eye. Give him too much cushion, and he would eat you alive on short routes. Isaac was a master at "selling his routes"---that is making defenders think he was the primary target, drawing 2-3 defenders to himself and allowing easy one-on-one match-ups for Torry, Ricky Proehl, or the Wizard of Az. When someone else had the rock, Isaac would turn into a run blocking demon with a personal best of 14 pancake blocks! in a single game. (That is one facet of Tavon's game that he does not get as much credit for. That 89-yard TD jaunt by Tre Mason probably would not have been finished had not Tavon took out the two DBs who were running Tre down. Tavon shocked the first DB by shooting in front of him almost undercutting him so well the DB stumbled and fell. The second DB was rendered ineffective by a well-timed Tavon screen block nudged the DB out of position for making any tackle attempts.)

Tavon clearly has the electric cutting ability and is easily faster & quicker than Isaac. However, he needs to master the mind games, knowing when to fake to throw defenders out of position, when to slow down to allow them to overrun themselves, and when to accelerate to Warp Five. I am sure they can give him all the catching drills and exercises he needs to improve there. However, something less than the Vulcan Mind Touch needs to be implemented for Isaac to impart his route running savvy to Mr. Excitement.
 
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rams56

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[QUNDOTE="-X-, post: 562425, member: 2"]I wouldn't presume to know which of the members here said Quick was a bust, and it's not really of much consequence if they did. People have different opinions and projections for different players, so I don't see how Quick maturing into a starter (maybe) after 3 years is going to be any indication of what Tavon can or cannot do.

Fisher isn't the only person who's weighed in on Tavon's route-running abilities though either. Lots of analysts who break down film have said he has some work to do in the areas of beating press, sharpening his routes, and recognizing coverages. Not the least of whom was Isaac Bruce. So now we have to determine how giving credence to Bruce's evaluation ties into my opinion of Quick too, I guess.

I will say this. Even IF Tavon doesn't become a bonafide #1 type of wideout, he's still plenty dangerous in the return game and in certain situations/positions. So it's not necessarily an insult if people think he still has a ways to go to be a well-rounded receiver. Even Tavon himself said he was completely lost in the playbook when he first started - and yet - he still managed to destroy a couple of defenses that underestimated his athleticism. So again, it's entirely up to him how far he can go. What's wrong with pointing that out? The same held true for Quick as well.[/QUOTE]

So X......I love Ike Bruce and he would know but when did Bruce say this or critique his route running? This off season? Last off season. I guess my point is he has the speed to wreck any game...And he may have improved already since said critique. But i also want to point out that anyone who is a(or has been at any level) head coach, offensive coordinator or position coach will tell you it is they're responsibility to help a player reach his potential and use that potential to help the team win especially when your a high no.1 pick. And I never thought he had the potential to be a true no. 1 receiver. .... but I think he does have the ability to be a bona-fide weapon cable of scoring on outside runs, as well as run after the catches and deep routes(TY Hilton type or AZ Hakim who aren't true no.1 wrs but are still or were used as game changing weapons). Not to mention that even if you miss TA on a deep pass it's hard to put 8 men in the box with him as a deep threat. But really how many reverses, bubble screens, fly patterns, flag or post patterns have you seen him used on in a game? It's really just four patterns and his yardage I think directly reflects how he is used. And all I'm saying is that I agree with Fisher. He can be used a lot better than in the past. This is just my opinion.

Go Rams.............. ;)
 

Athos

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It isn't Shotty. Tavon just hasn't been able to run smooth routes, display good hands, or make up for his lack of physical attributes outside of speediness.

He looked more effective as a RB here than as a WR. Disappointing for sure and I don't wanna be the ass that said, "told you so," but, well.....

Their one hope is to put Gurley and Austin in the backfield and scare the shit out of teams.
 

rams56

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It isn't Shotty. Tavon just hasn't been able to run smooth routes, display good hands, or make up for his lack of physical attributes outside of speediness.

He looked more effective as a RB here than as a WR. Disappointing for sure and I don't wanna be the ass that said, "told you so," but, well.....

Their one hope is to put Gurley and Austin in the backfield and scare the crap out of teams.

Im on complete opposite side of this than you my (rams) brother ...lol I don't agree with anything that you just said.... and i can see that i can talk til im blue in the face, im not getting anyone to consider anything else...that's your and my opinion or analysis. And I guess it's up to Fisher and Tavon to prove us right or wrong. ;)

Go Rams......... ;)
 

CoachO

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Im on complete opposite side of this than you my (rams) brother ...lol I don't agree with anything that you just said.... and i can see that i can talk til im blue in the face, im not getting anyone to consider anything else...that's your and my opinion or analysis. And I guess it's up to Fisher and Tavon to prove us right or wrong. ;)

Go Rams......... ;)
I guess for me, is what are you basing your opinion on? Fisher's comments? Because, if you look at the things Fisher says about any of his players, he is always saying how they have plans to utilize their skillset, and "plan" on a much more pronounced role for whatever player he is talking about.

As far as Austin is concerned, I am not sure why you feel he has shown to be capable of a complete route tree. Everything I have seen, be it firsthand at training camp, or attending the home games, to watching on tv, tells me that is just not the case. He is slow to diagnose coverages, and when his route calls for him to run anything other than the "4 routes" you have identified, he just doesn't look like he is sure where he is supposed to go. Teams play primarily zone coverage against the Rams, and that calls for him (and everyone else) to be able to find the soft spots in coverage, and get to the window. It's never as simple as just saying run a "go" route, and use your speed to get behind everyone.And that doesn't even address his issues with getting off the LOS, without having to run arond the press coverage, throwing the timing off on his route.

I don't think its by coincindence, that four different QBs in the past two years, have been unable to get him involved in the passing game. It's not about dedicating the system to fit ONE player, its about that player fitting into the system. And this far, Tavon Austin hasn't shown that he can adapt his game ot this level.
 

WvuIN02

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Sorry coach but that last part is just untrue in my eyes. With an actual decent starting level QB in Bradford he had 2/3 of his catches for the entire season through those 7 games his rookie year playing with Bradford before he got hurt. Not a coincidence. And he was getting better (everyone including Holt was saying it then too), but since then, he has had practice squad level QBs throwing him the ball.

The Rams QBs have been among the worst in the league....20 tds and 16 ints last year....come on man. Hill and Davis are just BAD....ie the interception at the goal line vs SD anyone?

Maybe if the Rams can turn into the 2000 Ravens they can win with these bad QBs, but its unlikely that's happening either. Other analysts have said it too, teams are not afraid of the Rams going deep so they can sit on everything underneath....so its not like other teams are playing the same kind of zones vs Ben Roethlisberger that they are vs the Shaun Hill.
 
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Dodgersrf

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Totally agree: Tavon definitely has a role in a run heavy offense. You're right about reverses but also look at the Jet Sweep. Not only does the Jet Sweep allow him to get the ball on the run but when we fake it - it holds the LBs and DE's for an extra second allowing more open running lanes in the middle for the RB.

As far as passing, I'd love to see him used more in bunched sets. I think we had some good success running screens (which you can argue is an extension of the run game) out of them but I'd like to see some vertical sets out of them too.
I'm with ya.
Though I do believe he has value as a decoy, he's much more fun to watch with the ball in his hands around mid field.
 

lockdnram21

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Sorry coach but that last part is just untrue in my eyes. With an actual decent starting level QB in Bradford he had 2/3 of his catches for the entire season through those 7 games his rookie year playing with Bradford before he got hurt. Not a coincidence. And he was getting better (everyone including Holt was saying it then too), but since then, he has had practice squad level QBs throwing him the ball.

The Rams QBs have been among the worst in the league....20 tds and 16 ints last year....come on man. Hill and Davis are just BAD....ie the interception at the goal line vs SD anyone?

Maybe if the Rams can turn into the 2000 Ravens they can win with these bad QBs, but its unlikely that's happening either. Other analysts have said it too, teams are not afraid of the Rams going deep so they can sit on everything underneath....so its not like other teams are playing the same kind of zones vs Ben Roethlisberger that they are vs the Shaun Hill.
I disagree Tavon had his best game to date as a wr with Clemens. That's because Colts tried to play him man to man. Guess we just have to disagree. Imo Tavon was overdrafted because he put up #s in the weak big 12 conference. He wouldn't have put those #s up in sec. To me he's a punt returner/RB. So your saying TY isn't #1 receiver. I really disagree with that. He's everything you want TA to be but isnt. Same for DJax.
 

Dodgersrf

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While I agree with the premise that should and will be able to throw the ball, I believe Fisher wants to duplicate the type of offense that Seattle has been so successful with.

While Seattle has a very effective passing game, they have had the least amount of passing attempts in the league since Wilson took the reigns.

I think Fisher and Cignetti will take their shots, but the running game will be first and foremost the foundation that everything works through.
Well. Without both you have neither.
I think we'll see a more balanced attack than we've seen the past couple of years. We've been surprisingly heavy with the passing game.
 

Dodgersrf

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Ok. We will have to agree to disagree. ... I believe he is a good route runner...and I'll take Fishers word over yours.......

Go Rams........ ;)
I think he COULD become a good route runner. So far, nothing to wright home about.

I have faith in him though. He's still young and can improve.
That will be up to TA to accomish. Not the coaches.
 

Dodgersrf

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Here it is CoachO. ....
Watch "Jeff Fisher on Tavon Austin's role in 2015" on YouTube

View: https://youtu.be/0i9sAUrnKfw

Did he just say OUTSIDE? Getting behind the secondary?
If Fisher is being honest here, it's clear he wasn't drafted to play the slot or be primarily a gadget player.
I've stated in the past that he has the intangibles of a guy like A. Brown. He's just not there yet.
Hopefully this year he is.
 

rams56

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I guess for me, is what are you basing your opinion on? Fisher's comments? Because, if you look at the things Fisher says about any of his players, he is always saying how they have plans to utilize their skillset, and "plan" on a much more pronounced role for whatever player he is talking about.

As far as Austin is concerned, I am not sure why you feel he has shown to be capable of a complete route tree. Everything I have seen, be it firsthand at training camp, or attending the home games, to watching on tv, tells me that is just not the case. He is slow to diagnose coverages, and when his route calls for him to run anything other than the "4 routes" you have identified, he just doesn't look like he is sure where he is supposed to go. Teams play primarily zone coverage against the Rams, and that calls for him (and everyone else) to be able to find the soft spots in coverage, and get to the window. It's never as simple as just saying run a "go" route, and use your speed to get behind everyone.And that doesn't even address his issues with getting off the LOS, without having to run arond the press coverage, throwing the timing off on his route.

I don't think its by coincindence, that four different QBs in the past two years, have been unable to get him involved in the passing game. It's not about dedicating the system to fit ONE player, its about that player fitting into the system. And this far, Tavon Austin hasn't shown that he can adapt his game ot this level.

CoachO.... being from western Ny (Bills Country -Coach Waffel Home town ) I have not been lucky enough to attend training camp or live games..... I have watched everything on directv....lol so I definitely would have to defer to you..... it's just I've watched the games over and over.....being an old coach that's what I do and I understand how plays are drawn, run etc.... it just never seems to be an option to run those other routes that he ran very successfully at west Virginia ...lol and it just seems to me that Fisher is backing up what I'm seeing....it is not based solely on Fishers comments. But I appreciate your time in explaining what your seeing. Thank you....... ;)

Go Rams......... ;)
 

rams56

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Did he just say OUTSIDE? Getting behind the secondary?
If Fisher is being honest here, it's clear he wasn't drafted to play the slot or be primarily a gadget player.
I've stated in the past that he has the intangibles of a guy like A. Brown. He's just not there yet.
Hopefully this year he is.

I'm not sure here...but I think he is implying that TA has the skills and game breaking ability to do either....in other words try to defend him anywhere on the field...not just within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. ...now that's just my take.....and as it has been pointed out...lol It may just be Coach speak...time will tell.....thanks guys... ;)

Go Rams.......... ;)
 

Ram Quixote

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@CoachO For one who has complained often about those who believe a player is who he is without the chance of improvement, I believe you're perpetrating the same thing with Tavon.

Let's just wait and see how he progresses, shall we?
 

CoachO

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@CoachO For one who has complained often about those who believe a player is who he is without the chance of improvement, I believe you're perpetrating the same thing with Tavon.

Let's just wait and see how he progresses, shall we?
I have not said that I don't think he can develop. This discussion has been about what I have seen thus far. I have also made plenty comments about how it is up to Tavon himself to "figure it out".

The frustrating part for me when it comes to this topic, is how quick people are to direct ALL of the "blame" on Schottenheimer or Fisher by claiming Austin has not "been used correctly". I just choose to believe that they are extremely limited by a player who hasn't figure out the mental aspect of playing the position YET. That is not to say he won't or isn't capable.

I just don't buy into the concept of thinking that somehow ONE player should have the whole system designed around his skillset. And that is what it seems to me is the argument when I read "they haven't used him correctly".

Similar to the failed Percy Harvin experiment in Seattle, trying to force the offense THROUGH Austin is not in the best interest of the team.
 

Dodgersrf

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I'm not sure here...but I think he is implying that TA has the skills and game breaking ability to do either....in other words try to defend him anywhere on the field...not just within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. ...now that's just my take.....and as it has been pointed out...lol It may just be Coach speak...time will tell.....thanks guys... ;)

Go Rams.......... ;)
Agree.
I just get excited about the possibility of TA spreading defenses on the outside.
The further down field we get him the ball, the less defenders there are to try and catch that rabbit.
 

lockdnram21

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Obviously I'm a homer but don't you doubters forget how dominant he can be when he's used optimally...


Those joke of a defenses. If he would have been in sec or even division that Florida Sr is in you would be Tavon who. If you would have put him in sec dude would have been 5th round pick at best
 
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That's a separate discussion...I'll leave it at this, the next spring 11 defensive players off that 10-3 team were either drafted or invited to a camp for workouts. Too lazy to find out how many ended up with contracts or how many other players that were on that defense as underclassmen that also would subsequently get a shot at the NFL.