Do it now or wait and see? (Foles contract)

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ChrisW

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I think you try to extend him. I'm willing to bet that last year was the lower end of his abilities, and you've seen what he can do on the higher end of his ceiling.

If you get him now, you'll get him for a more modest price, and KD will do his thing and front load the guaranteed money so we can unload him if it all goes to shit in a couple years.
 

Merlin

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I recall the Rams being questioned for trading a second round pick for Faulk and also for signing him to the contract Indy wouldn't give him. Folks look at the whole thing differently now, but back then there was a lot of negative crap being thrown out about how many more years Marshall had left as a RB, how he had lost a step, and how much the Rams had invested in that contract (7 years!) which Shaw called the biggest in the franchise history at the time of signing it.

Risk abounded in that move, but he was the right fit for Martz and his offense and the Rams hit pay dirt. The Rams clearly feel that Foles is a great fit

I see a lot of similarities with Foles. He has also shown he can play at a high level when everything around him is ideal. His team also decided to go another way with an "upgrade" which made him surprisingly available. He also comes to a Rams team that has a new coordinator following one who was much maligned.

Lastly the Rams are doing right by Foles to make the attempt. He doesn't have to play next year for peanuts and if the two can come to a compromise and save the team a little money on what he'd cost after an average season then it's worthwhile. Because I think he is average at the least, particularly with the talent the Rams have around him.

So screw it I says. No guts no glory and all that. I'm all in.
 
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Akrasian

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Negotiating with him now makes sense - they have much more leverage than at the end of the season. Yes, there is additional risk, but a well constructed contract would protect them from most realistic contingencies. Obviously there could be a crippling injury, or he could be far worse than they believe. More likely he is somewhere between 2013 and 2014 in skill going forward, and a QB like that can help the Rams win going forward.

If they don't sign him now, if he is decent or better this season then the Rams will be forced to pay through the nose to keep him, because other teams will bid up the price big time. That would put the Rams in the position of having to franchise him, and hoping that they can sign him long term after they do that.

Obviously, if he asks for the moon in these negotiations, the Rams don't have to sign him.
 

LACHAMP46

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yeah, that's the scary part...I damn near vomited when I saw what Smith in KC was making...

He has also shown he can play at a high level when everything around him is ideal.
Namely a running game...cross fingers..

they have much more leverage than at the end of the season.
unless he's injured (knock on aged red-wood) or just seriously stinks up the joint...in both cases, we're screwed if he signs long-term now...
 

Alan

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flv seeing the similarities:
I think we're in the same ball park over Foles. We both want to see a bit more of him before signing a big contract. Holdouts seem to happen when contracts are near their end, bare little relation to a player's value, and the team is intransigent about contract conditions. The Rams haven't been unrealistic with proven players but they haven't hurried to re-do expiring contracts of non-stars. Interesting to see what happens here.

Sorry if i'm being verbose. I'm aware of it being 1 of my character flaws. Observation is another weak point. I'm the guy who fails to notice the woman he's talking to is 8 months pregnant. (Yes, I did once ask a very pregnant woman why she was leaving her job :rolleyes:).
Yeah, I think we're on the same page with Foles.

As for being verbose, I'm not sure how you could look at that as a flaw, I see that as an attribute. The more detailed the better as far as I'm concerned. With the advent of twitter, texting and the like, no one talks anymore and when they do they have no nuance in their discussions. It's not the reading that bothers me because I don't read single words, I read multiple words or sometimes whole sentences at once. It's looking for misplaced letters and misspelled words that gives me problems because then I have to look at each word and each letter. They are totally different experiences.

The facial droop I got from my last heart attack also affected the whole left side of my body. It's very minor and I don't notice it until I try to type. I'm a touch typist and could formerly type about 60 words per minute with virtually no mistakes. Now, there's a slight delay in my left hand responding to my brain's commands and that often means I type a letter with my right quicker than I do with my left hand. Makes for a lot of errors I have to edit out which takes forever and is hard on my eyes. How could that be your fault? :LOL: I just mentioned it because I frequently try to condense my thoughts to cut down on my typing and that's why I'm often misread. That's all on me flv and it's going to happen again. I'll just correct any misreadings (when I notice them) that causes and we'll move on with both of us on the same page. (y) :LOL:
 
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GabesHorn

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No more sam stuff? The rams had no choice with that contract. There's nothing to learn from that except don't pick from the #1 position again.

Get a deal like Wilson? That's only happening if they strike gold in the 3rd round. Not sure mannion is gold.

.
I was only referring to getting a very inexpensive year out of Fole's contract.(respective of what other NFL starters make) I like the 1.5 million for one year while we truly see what we have under pressure and see if he can finish uninjured also. Too much to find out. Was'nt referring to a 3rd round lucky draft pick or what Wilsons' future contract will be.

The Sam stuff was mor than his original deal we pretty much got stuck in giving him. We could have gotten away from that deal much sooner (with a hit of course) we did'nt have to embrace him and it to the detriment of our team as so many saw well ahead of time. It was Fishers man crush not mine. Glad Snead probably was able to make him see the light. Thats what I believe.
 

Athos

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I'd do it, but then......I don't trust what we have backing him up as being franchise QB worthy talent.

Worst case, you snag another QB in 2016 (a much deeper class imo) and let Foles manage the team until a rookie is ready.
 

Ram65

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The way to do that would be a signing bonus. Keep his base pay at $1.5 million for this season, give him say $18 million in signing bonus with the contract running through 2020 say - that would raise his cap hit this year to $4.5 million, but he would actually have $19.5 million - enough so that unless he's stupid he's set for life, even if he'd like more. Then each year in the contract his cap hit would be $3 million more than his salary. Guarantee his salary - at whatever price it is - for next season, and guarantee part of his 2017 contract - suddenly he has $30 million or so guaranteed, but relatively little dead money after 2017.

What are the yearly salaries and bonuses?

Is 30 Million enough of a guarantee?

Is 18 Million signing bonus too much for the Rams?



Found this quote from here:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...r-team-structures-deals----and-why-it-matters

St. Louis Rams: The signing bonus/salary guarantee model is used most frequently, although Chris Long has a-pay-as-you-go deal. Signing bonuses are typically kept under $5 million with fully guaranteed base salaries in the first two years. Some deals have early roster bonuses (usually before the fifth day of the league year) that can become fully guaranteed. The Rams are comfortable with guarantees that don't have offsets. Fortunately for the Rams, Cortland Finnegan's $3 million 2014 roster bonus guaranteed for skill and injury when he was released has an offset. The Rams will get the $3 million back from the deal he signed with Dolphins.

Interesting article.

Your idea seems to make sense. I'm not sure how much room the Rams have in 2015. I don't know if they would be comfy with that 18M signing bonus. That leaves 9 Million potential dead money after 2017.
 
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Akrasian

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What are the yearly salaries and bonuses?

Is 30 Million enough of a guarantee?

Is 18 Million signing bonus too much for the Rams?



Found this quote from here:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...r-team-structures-deals----and-why-it-matters

St. Louis Rams: The signing bonus/salary guarantee model is used most frequently, although Chris Long has a-pay-as-you-go deal. Signing bonuses are typically kept under $5 million with fully guaranteed base salaries in the first two years. Some deals have early roster bonuses (usually before the fifth day of the league year) that can become fully guaranteed. The Rams are comfortable with guarantees that don't have offsets. Fortunately for the Rams, Cortland Finnegan's $3 million 2014 roster bonus guaranteed for skill and injury when he was released has an offset. The Rams will get the $3 million back from the deal he signed with Dolphins.

Interesting article.

Your idea seems to make sense. I'm not sure how much room the Rams have in 2015. I don't know if they would be comfy with that 18M signing bonus. That leaves 9 Million potential dead money after 2017.

True. The reason I suggested that bonus is that while the overall contract wouldn't necessarily be huge - he would get a ton of money THIS year, which is always appealing. The Rams have tons of money (all NFL teams do) and their spending is constrained by the overall cap hit which is far more important to them than when the money is actually paid out - but for the player and his agent, getting the money sooner rather than later is a very good thing. So I was figuring it would be easier to get him to accept an overall smaller amount if it is heavily front loaded. Doing it via signing bonus is the only way to prevent it from hitting the cap too hard this year, though.

I know the Rams prefer to guarantee salaries normally. But with all the potential free agents this might be the time to use a big signing bonus or two to allow the Rams to sign more of their free agents. It's a gamble, but at least it would be gambling on a young player they like.
 

kurtfaulk

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I was only referring to getting a very inexpensive year out of Fole's contract.(respective of what other NFL starters make) I like the 1.5 million for one year while we truly see what we have under pressure and see if he can finish uninjured also. Too much to find out. Was'nt referring to a 3rd round lucky draft pick or what Wilsons' future contract will be.

The Sam stuff was mor than his original deal we pretty much got stuck in giving him. We could have gotten away from that deal much sooner (with a hit of course) we did'nt have to embrace him and it to the detriment of our team as so many saw well ahead of time. It was Fishers man crush not mine. Glad Snead probably was able to make him see the light. Thats what I believe.

ahh, now i get ya.

they did restructure sam's contract as soon as they took charge. they moved all the guaranteed money to the 12 and 13 seasons so that if he didn't perform they could cut or trade him with minimal dead money on the books. it was like a 2 year look at him. however his acl injury in 13 ruined their plans. he showed enough for them to hang on but it was not meant to be as the horror of last preseason unfolded.

.
 

Ram65

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True. The reason I suggested that bonus is that while the overall contract wouldn't necessarily be huge - he would get a ton of money THIS year, which is always appealing. The Rams have tons of money (all NFL teams do) and their spending is constrained by the overall cap hit which is far more important to them than when the money is actually paid out - but for the player and his agent, getting the money sooner rather than later is a very good thing. So I was figuring it would be easier to get him to accept an overall smaller amount if it is heavily front loaded. Doing it via signing bonus is the only way to prevent it from hitting the cap too hard this year, though.

I know the Rams prefer to guarantee salaries normally. But with all the potential free agents this might be the time to use a big signing bonus or two to allow the Rams to sign more of their free agents. It's a gamble, but at least it would be gambling on a young player they like.

I see your logic as I tried to find a reason the Rams or Foles would not do a deal. I noticed the Rams currently have 8 Million or so in all dead money. Sam 3.5M Wells 1m come to mind. How about they guarantee the same amount in salary and future roster bonuses that gives him one year of higher cap hit in the next 2-3 years. Demoff likes to take high cap hit one year over the first two year and maybe the third year of a contract. It will be interesting how it turns out. I'm in the Phila market and I like Foles but I don't know how much I would gamble after only two years of up then down football. I enjoyed reading your post and like projecting contract numbers. Stay turned.
 

RamBill

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According to NFL.com’s Ian Rapport, the St. Louis Rams will try to sign Nick Foles to an extension by the end of the offseason. Will Foles and his agent get a deal done? Watch Adam Lefkoe and the Sports Xchange’s Howard Balzer discuss Foles’ possible extension with the Rams.

Watch Balzer Talk Foles Contract Extension
 

RamBill

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The Rams Shouldn’t Rush to Sign Nick Foles to a Long-Term Deal
by: Anthony Stalter

http://www.101sports.com/2015/06/23/the-rams-shouldnt-rush-to-sign-nick-foles-to-a-long-term-deal/

Rams coach Jeff Fisher recently confirmed that the Rams were interested in signing quarterback Nick Foles to a long-term contract, which begs the question: Are Fisher and the Rams being proactive or putting the cart before the horse?

Three years ago, Joe Flacco decided to bet on himself rather than signing a long-term extension with the Ravens in the 2012 offseason. After a rough first half, Flacco turned red-hot down the stretch and into the playoffs, leading Baltimore to a Super Bowl victory.

Flacco parlayed that success into a six-year, $120.6 million contract worth $52 million in guaranteed money.

If Foles doesn’t want to take a similar risk, he and his agent could “settle” for a deal in the range of $13-17 million, which is a realistic figure that ESPN’s Rams reporter Nick Wagoner has thrown out for Foles in recent weeks.

If the guaranteed money is low, then the risk is low and therefore signing Foles to a contract extension makes sense.

But, are Foles and his agent willing to accept peanuts, considering how much today’s quarterbacks are making?

It’s doubtful, and if the base salary and guarantees come anywhere close to what Chiefs QB Alex Smith signed for in 2014 (five years, $76 million with $45 million guaranteed), the risk outweighs the reward in my eyes.

Foles had a terrific 2013 season, throwing 27 touchdowns and just two interceptions. But, he played in a “quarterback-friendly” offense equipped with packaged plays that allowed him to make reads quickly and distribute the ball based on how the defense reacted pre and post-snap.

Foles is a cerebral player and there’s no doubt that he’ll pick up Frank Cignetti’s playbook in St. Louis. And it’s not like he didn’t have to read defenses and cycle through his progressions under Chip Kelly in Philadelphia.

The challenge for Foles will be playing under center after taking the majority of his snaps from shotgun in Philadelphia. It’s not the physical act of taking a snap from under center that’s the problem: It’s the timing and anticipation that’s vital for a quarterback in a pro-style offense.

Accuracy in the NFL is vital on every attempt. Don’t hit the receiver in the right spot and, at best, it’s a minimal gain or an incompletion. At worst, it’s a turnover worth six points for the opposition.

In order to be accurate, quarterbacks must perfect their footwork. This is an area at which Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers excel. They know how to time their drop steps to match their receivers’ routes and throw in rhythm so that their release point is the same on every throw. This doesn’t come naturally. The great ones have worked at the technique.

Foles is already drawing praise for his leadership and there’s no doubt that he has the size and arm strength to succeed in St. Louis, just as he did in 2013 with Philadelphia.

But just assuming Foles will make a seamless transition from Kelly’s offense to a more traditional system is a risk.

So, why pay him even average money before he’s proven he can deliver in live games?

Also, many argue the Rams should sign Foles to a deal now in case he has a great season and costs more in the offseason.

But, the guy will be quarterbacking a run-first offense. What type of numbers do you think Foles is going to put up in a Rams offense that wants to run the ball the majority of the time

Andy Dalton played in a run-first offense for the Bengals last year and threw for 19 touchdowns with 17 picks. Smith threw for 18 touchdowns and six picks with KC, while Colin Kaepernick finished with 19 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Russell Wilson, who played in Seattle’s run-first system, put up 20 touchdowns and seven interceptions.

While we haven’t see the offense that Cignetti will run, it’s safe to assume, based on Fisher’s preferences and the moves the team made this offseason, the Rams are going to pound the ball on the ground.

It’s just a projection, but Foles’ ceiling is realistically 20-23 touchdowns with 10-15 interceptions. Those aren’t exactly Andrew Luck numbers.

The people suggesting the Rams pay Foles now are the same people that love to point out how Foles will have success because the Rams are going to run the ball effectively. Well, if the Rams aren’t going to require their quarterback to put the ball in the air 40 times a game, it will limit Foles’ opportunities to rack up big yardage and big touchdown totals. Thus, his asking price isn’t going to be high when he becomes a free agent.

I know the argument…”But, there won’t be better options than Foles!” Valid point, but the Rams can still make him prove his worth this season without handing him a new contract and thus blindly assuming he’ll exceed their expectations.

Again, if he’s not going to post elite quarterback numbers, why worry about having to pay him elite money at the end of the year? The Rams could always franchise him and then work on a deal that’s fair for both sides.

Don’t get it twisted: I’m excited to watch Foles this season. I loved the Sam Bradford trade when it went down and the Rams made the right decision to unburden themselves from Bradford’s contract and durability issues a year from now (regardless of how either Foles or Bradford performs in 2015).

If Foles is willing to accept a new deal for peanuts, by all means, sign him now with the risk being low.

But, when it comes to signing him for even average QB money, I’d rather the Rams risk having to pay Foles a little more a year from now if it means knowing that he can succeed in their system.

I’ll take that over regretting a long-term commitment if the production never comes.
 

snackdaddy

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If they really believe Foles is the future of this team, I think they gotta extend him. I know its a gamble. But quarterbacks are a whole different animal than any other position. If its a DB, LB, WR I can see being hesitant. But when its a quarterback, you gotta gamble a little. What if he's doing really well and hits the open market? Or he's having a good season and it costs a lot more to extend him in December than now? It all depends on what they think he will do.
 

Rmfnlt

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If they really believe Foles is the future of this team, I think they gotta extend him. I know its a gamble. But quarterbacks are a whole different animal than any other position. If its a DB, LB, WR I can see being hesitant. But when its a quarterback, you gotta gamble a little. What if he's doing really well and hits the open market? Or he's having a good season and it costs a lot more to extend him in December than now? It all depends on what they think he will do.
Therein lies the rub.

IF they had a decent sample size to work with, sure...

But they have one amazing season, one not-so-amazing season cut short by injury.

To me, that's not enough to go by... and, if they say they're extending him based on what they've seen thus far in OTAs? I really have to wonder.

Fisher stuck by Bradford until the bitter end... I really don't want to go through that again (bitter ends).
 

RAGRam

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Only way I'm signing him now is if he'll take a Kaepernick type deal, effectively long term but with the option for the team to get out of it year to year.

We sign him now to anything approaching a typical QB deal and he plays like the less accurate Austin Davis he was last year then your freaked for years to come.

Hey June RAGRam how you doing? :love: