Agreed! Fish has Vermeil's strength of authority and would be extra careful at this point to make sure Sam is well protected. Still, it would be intriguing to see who Fish prefers: Mad Mike or Cool Hand Chud.
Browns to interview Mike Martz
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Agreed! Fish has Vermeil's strength of authority and would be extra careful at this point to make sure Sam is well protected. Still, it would be intriguing to see who Fish prefers: Mad Mike or Cool Hand Chud.
1. Good for Martz if he wants to come back... but the Browns' OC job is yet another DOA position. He needs to find something with a bit more promise. Denver with Martz could be scary once he finds a new QB.
2. Still thinking there'd be no way he comes back here. Too much baggage and potential conflict in philosophy with Fisher. Although some for sure will be bemoaning our "lost opportunity" when he doesn't.
2. Still thinking there'd be no way he comes back here. Too much baggage and potential conflict in philosophy with Fisher. Although some for sure will be bemoaning our "lost opportunity" when he doesn't.
Blue and Gold
Pro Bowler
Well . . . there are only a few ways to improve pass protection. Either the 5 guys need to do a better job or the QB has to get ball out quicker . .. both of those are on the players. The other thing you can do is keep a back or TE in to pass protect which takes away one of your eligible recievers. If you want a wide-open 5 receiver offense you have to protect with 5. If you want to protect your QB you need to keep at least 6 blockers and that reduces your receivers to 4.
If you run 5-man protectuions, your QB is going to get hit, but if you can withstand it, and your skills players are good, you get the GSOT. But that comes with a cost.
Warner, from 1999-2001 got sacked 6% of the time. From 2002-2006 he got sacked 8.5% of the time, and that's with 3 teams. He simply held the ball too long. From 2007-2009 he go sacked 4.4% of the time, Coach Whiz talked about how he got ball out quicker and the "old" Kurt Warner was back.
So, yeah, if your 5 OLmen are not up to snuff, the GSOT does not work. If your 5-olmen cannot get it done, you need 6-man protection. Will Martz change? No idea.
Blue and Gold
Pro Bowler
then trade Bradford to Cle to compete with Hoyer for Manziel, which is who many posters wanted.
:X3:
You know, if Martz goes to the Browns, I will actually feel sorry for Manziel.
He's going to catch hell from Mad Mike.
This is where I disagree a tad because under Vermeil they ran more mass protections when Jeff Robinson used to come in and seem to do less and less of that during Mad Mike's tenure. There are ways to protect with more than five guys.
Now yes getting rid of the ball and having the big nasty's up front improve will help in pass protection, but sometimes you have to be creative. The Super Bowl against the Pats was a good example because it wasn't until they put Yo Murphy in the back field and then started throwing it to him on the wing which turned the offense around in the 4th quarter.
IMO there are some coaches that are great matches and the Vermeil/Martz combination was very special very much Belichick/McDaniels and it crushes me to post that. I was hoping Fisher/Williams combination defensively would lead the two back to the promise land, but the jury is still out on that.
Blue and Gold
Pro Bowler
Not quite sure what you are saying. The offense was same in 1999 as it was in 2000 and 2001 . .. in 1999 Jeff robinson was the second TE, in 2000 he was really the third. In 2001 he was back to the 2nd te and caugh more passes in 2001 than 1999.
The way to protect "with for than five guys" is 6-man or 7-man protections. And I don't think they used them more in 1999 than 2000 and 2001 did they?
There was less empty backfield/OL only pass blocking sets in 1999 with Vermeil in charge. That changed in 2000/2001 when Martz advanced to the top coaching post. Warner definitely was pounded more in 2000/2001, even missed some games and was replaced by Trent Green.
Nah. Bradford the only hope for a successful 2015 season. I cringed saying this, but believe it to be the truth.
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Maybe that's the reason they want to bring Martz in. His reputation precedes him. He's extremely demanding and if he drives Manziel out, the Browns don't need to worry about toiling over a QB controversy in 2016, if he turns Manziel into a star, they're finally onto something.
Yes I felt under Vermeil they used mass protection more, however, with Martz he exposed the QB to taking more hits, but that was JMHO.
I agree with you. Go back and look at the formations under Vermeil vs Martz as HC. There was alot more spread and empty backfield once Martz took over. That was my perception at the time anyway.
That's what I was thinking. I don't know if Manziel has the dedication and mental toughness to handle it but Martz would destroy that kid. He'd either man up and develop under him or he'd give up and fold. Martz would not put up with his shitty mechanics or lack of preparation. He'd rip his ass until Manziel either got better or quit.
You're playing a dangerous game...but it might be necessary if you think that's what Manziel needs...a coach that will ride him until he gets it together.
And it happened in Chicago when Martz was there.
I remember a Sunday night game... I went to the Rams game (I think we beat Seattle!) and was watching the Chicago game in my hotel room. The QB (forget who it was then) was getting creamed by long developing plays (and the Oline stunk). Didn't seem to matter to Martz... he kept dialing up the long developing plays.
The announcers were all over it.
Next day, Lovie came out and said there were going to be changes made regarding the offense... he'd had it by then too.
I agree... the offense under Vermiel (and Martz) had some element of control.
Under Martz alone? He had no control.
Blue and Gold
Pro Bowler
What if someone HAS looked at it (Stats, LLC and NFLGSIS) and the numbers are the same in 1999 and 2000-2001. Vermeil didn't call teh offense in 1999. He turned all of it over to Martz.
So, isn't the burden on those who think the offense was different with Vermeil there? I mean one psoter suggested that Jeff Robinson had something to do with, but it seems there was more of Robinson in 2001 than in 1999.
So, if you think there was "a lot more spread and empty" I would love to check out the evidence . . . I could be wrong, but would like to see the numbers. (other than the ones I have seen)
Blue and Gold
Pro Bowler
Blue and Gold
Pro Bowler
Also, see the production of the 3rd and 4th WRs . . . numbers are not drastically up for Hakim and Proehl in 2000 and 2001, if at all.
