Andrew Donnal @ LT

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OnceARam

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View attachment 17826
For those of you who discount PFF, do you disagree with Aaron Donald as the top performer in the NFL? Did ANY of you break down EVERY PLAY? Donnal was better than GRob but that doesn't take much. I understand why Fisher is pretending this was a "one week break." Maybe Robinson rededicates, maybe he just doesn't have IT. My vote is that he is a Jason Smith clone....all the ability...not mentally cut out for the job. High draft picks are hard to jettison but after a few years, you have to make that hard decision.

All those that call me wrong here, I will save this. WHEN GRob is out of football like J Smith, I will cram this down your throats. I'm not a Donnal fan but over 50 years of watching football, it's OBVIOUSLY time to move on. He will NEVER be the man we hoped. The best case scenario is Tony Mandarich. Move him inside and hope he becomes serviceable.

I just want to point out that GRob does not equal Jason Smith. GRob is a mountain of a man and a freak of nature in terms of athletic ability. GRob also "works" to get better and genuinely seems to "want" to get better.

Jason Smith was a converted TE and had ZERO interest in putting in the work to be a great NFL player. (And in all fairness to him; he may have had some health scares around concussions.) Also, J Smith's lack of whatever it takes to be a good player is not on our current administration.

At the very minimum, assuming a competent coaching staff, GRob could be a beast of a run blocking Guard - and is salvageable.
 

LACHAMP46

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And Donnall the LT...he did ok....against what was one of the worst defenses we've faced this year...not good, not great, just ok. against the worst RDE's we've probably faced. I'd be interested to see how he fares vs NE, Atl, Seattle & Arizona
 

thirteen28

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I just want to point out that GRob does not equal Jason Smith. GRob is a mountain of a man and a freak of nature in terms of athletic ability. GRob also "works" to get better and genuinely seems to "want" to get better.

Jason Smith was a converted TE and had ZERO interest in putting in the work to be a great NFL player. (And in all fairness to him; he may have had some health scares around concussions.) Also, J Smith's lack of whatever it takes to be a good player is not on our current administration.

At the very minimum, assuming a competent coaching staff, GRob could be a beast of a run blocking Guard - and is salvageable.

Bingo. The whole GRob = Jason Smith canard is beyond ridiculous. I don't know when Bentley's clinic started, but it's almost impossible to imagine Smith ever taking time out of his offseason to do such a thing.

Furthermore, GRob was quoted last season as realizing that just having athletic ability wasn't enough at this level and saying that he would have to do more film study and such. That epiphany showed up on the field in the latter half of last season as he made significant strides in improving his game.

And as far as the wanting to get better, Boudreau was quoted recently as saying just as much, emphasizing that Greg is not a guy who just shows up to collect a paycheck, but that he's prideful and wants to do better and works at it. If anyone had a good motivation to throw him under the bus, it would be Boudreau, because GRob's uneven progress and regression in run blocking this year reflects poorly on his coaching.

I can understand being frustrated with him, and I certainly don't think benching him was unwarranted after last weeks bonehead penalty. But making him a healthy scratch was just plain stupid. As is the Jason Smith comparison.

And as far as PFF's OL rankings, when they start normalizing for uncalled holding penalties (which there are numerous ones committed against the Rams DL on a weekly basis) as well as bullsh*t holding penalties, which describes at least half of those called against GRob, then I might take them a little more seriously. As it stands now, their rankings completely over look the extremely selected and inconsistent enforcement of offensive holding. And if they really believe that Saffold has outperformed GRob by as much as their ratings suggest, they need to put down the meth pipe and check into rehab.
 

jrry32

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View attachment 17826
For those of you who discount PFF, do you disagree with Aaron Donald as the top performer in the NFL?

I think there's an argument for a lot of players being the top guy in the NFL. Aaron Donald is an easy evaluation. He also benefits from PFF's simplistic system.

Did ANY of you break down EVERY PLAY?

I have in the past. And I found PFF's grading to be inaccurate. I've also talked to PFF's founders and others who worked there. I considered working with them back in the day when they had just started out and needed volunteers. I ultimately didn't because I didn't agree with their grading system. I still don't.

PFF's grading system treats football as a game of individual match-ups. PFF's "scouts" only look to see if a player's performance on a given play was a win, a loss, or neutral in his individual match-up. Some of you might say, "What's wrong with that?" Here's what's wrong with it. PFF doesn't attempt to understand schemes or responsibilities. They say they don't do that because it makes things too subjective. The truth is that they don't do it because they're not capable of doing it.(both do to knowledge limitations and time limitations)

Thus, PFF grades what they see as individual match-ups with no consideration to what the player was supposed to be doing. For example, let's say that we tell Aaron Donald that he's responsible for the B Gap. His assignment calls for him to occupy the B gap, tie up his blocker, and allow for Ogletree to shoot the A gap to make the play in the back-field. Let's say that Donald thinks he can make a bigger play by shooting the C gap. Donald shoots the C gap, beats his man, and gets a hand on the HB. However, Donald can't bring the HB down. Ogletree is shooting the A gap as the scheme calls for which makes it appear that Ogletree overran the play and is in the wrong spot. The HB runs right by Ogletree after Donald can't tackle him with an arm tackle, through the unoccupied B gap, and takes it 50 yards before he's tackled by a safety.

How do you think PFF grades that play? They give Donald a positive grade for penetrating into the back-field, beating his man, and forcing the runner to change direction. They give Ogletree a negative play for running through the wrong gap and completely missing the HB.

In real life, how do you think Rams coaches grade that play? They chew Donald out for abandoning his assignment. They tell Ogletree that he did the right thing on the play and would have had a TFL if Donald was where he was supposed to be.

That's the problem with PFF. What they do is analogous to assigning 20 different book critics to each read a chapter in a 20 chapter book, each rate the book based on their 1 chapter, and then average the ratings out for the book as a whole. You all would think that's stupid. In order to grade the book, you have to see the bigger picture. That means reading the entire book. You may get it right on some books based on 1 chapter because you can get a feel for the author's writing style, technical command, and how interesting the story is. But there will be a lot of books where you get it wrong.

That's what happens with PFF. They don't see the big picture. And it's why their grades are wrong on a lot of players.

Donnal was better than GRob but that doesn't take much. I understand why Fisher is pretending this was a "one week break." Maybe Robinson rededicates, maybe he just doesn't have IT. My vote is that he is a Jason Smith clone....all the ability...not mentally cut out for the job. High draft picks are hard to jettison but after a few years, you have to make that hard decision.

It was hard to isolate Donnal's play with the entire OL performing badly. But the OL performed the worst it has in weeks. Maybe the worst it has since the 49ers game. I don't think that's a coincidence. In fact, on that 4th and 1 play late in the game, we ran left behind Donnal, Brown, and Barnes. The play got blown up. We've seen that plenty this year. But I didn't see any improvement with Donnal in the game. In fact, I saw a worse OL.

I'm also not going to make assumptions about Robinson's dedication when I have no inside knowledge of it.

All those that call me wrong here, I will save this. WHEN GRob is out of football like J Smith, I will cram this down your throats. I'm not a Donnal fan but over 50 years of watching football, it's OBVIOUSLY time to move on. He will NEVER be the man we hoped. The best case scenario is Tony Mandarich. Move him inside and hope he becomes serviceable.

I'd say the best case scenario is Leonard Davis. He was a penalty machine at OT but absolutely dominant when moved inside to OG. I actually do agree that it might be time to move Robinson inside to OG. Problem is that we don't have anyone to replace him at LT. And this draft class isn't looking good when it comes to LT prospects based on what I hear.

As for you saving it and cramming it down people's throats, that's an awfully childish and petty response to somebody disagreeing with you. I don't think it's necessary to try and threaten people out of disagreeing with me. But I guess that's just me.
 

BonifayRam

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Many of us thought that Andrew Donnal was going to be released in pre season as many of us were convinced that the mountain of a man Isaiah Battle was going to pick up the mantle of the 3rd OT & tote the load......well IB's play stunk period...with major chunks missing in his game & it was sure he was not ready for the NFL 53 player master roster.

Then there was veteran Garrett Reynolds who proved to be a brilliant baby sitter for GRob over the last half of the 2015 season. No way that Andrew Donnal was going to make the roster over GR. Then the injury to GR which lead to the IR & then to his release. So now GRob was without his baby sitter.

Should I point out again that there was a major ongoing issue with starting RT Rob Havenstein off season injury & it was serious. RH was unable to be physically involved in any OTA's Training Camp & most of all Pre season this season. It was rumored by some that RH was on the edge of being placed on the IR. But RH decided to give it a go the first week of the season & fought through the pain & the large amount of rust that he took to the field. As we all know that RH's 2016 season has been far from close to what RH was in his rookie season. Fact is that in Sunday's game it was RH who has maybe his worse game of the season. Anyway IMO he had a total breakdown in the 2nd half on the edge of the right side of the OL. 2015 seasons third OT Darrell Williams played more RT than Donnal or Reynolds or Battle but as the pre season ended he was IR'd.

Up till RH enter the ring it was Rodger Saffold who had took complete control of the RT post thru OTA's, TC & pre season. RS had little to none activity @ LG until the first week of the season. Just maybe the smart technically sound now refurbished Saffold needed time to get synchronized back @ OLG a post. RS only started one game @ LG in the 2015 season & only 5 games in 2014 seasons so its not like RS has been a long time resident @ LG. I really believe that RS & the entire OL along with Boudreau had planned for RS to be our starting RT not the LG this season.

With RS working elsewhere, Cody Wichmann & Garrett Reynolds were the two main LG's in OTA's, TC & pre season. CW saw very little of his 2015 starting post RG before the regular season started. The RG post resident was Jamon Brown there was no doubt to anyone that JB was going to be the starting RG when the regular season started right? But JB was having issues in his play in pre season. Many saw that WWC David Arkin looked much better @ RG but many made excuses that David was playing with 3rd string DL'ers too. But DA did start one game @ RG over JB in pre season. IMO it was DA performance in comparison to JB's that we saw DA make the initial season roster in the OL cadre.

For those you are still here with me on this long post are you seeing my main point here that this current OL that started the 2016 season was primarily not the same OL that began the OTA's & from that point on. The only two starting OL'ers that remained in the same post when the season began were GRob & Tim Barnes. Many here wanted Rhaney & Eric Kush as our centers in 2016 & wanted Barnes gone. 3/5 ths of this OL was rearranged when the season opened in just one weeks time.

Cody Wichmann ended up @ RG after an entire off season @ LG. Rodger Saffold ended up @ LG after an entire off season as the starting RT. Rob Havenstein who was MIA for all of pre 2016 regular season started from a dead start @ RT. Jamon Brown who was our starting RG for the entire off season, faded into some reserve activity & some inactive games. In the end OT Isaiah Battle cut, OT/OG Garrett Reynolds IR'd. OC/OG Eric Kush & OG David Arkin were cut.

Back to top reserve Andrew Donnal, he made the roster mostly due to injuries to 3 other OT's Darrel Williams, Garrett Reynolds & Isaiah Battle. Now move into this past week where the bad play of GRob & an wrist injury to back up LT Saffold permitted Donnal to get his FIRST NFL game action @ LT. RD had a one start @ LG & one start RT in 2015 season & saw action in the offense @ RG too before a knee injury took him to the sideline for the last third of 2015 season.

So our 3 OL post reserve (LG/RG/RT) Andrew Donnal proved to be a valuable reserve @ OLT too. I found it interesting as members above found nicky picky problems with AD's play in Sundays gameo_O. I think that AD took care of business yesterday & while he is no Orlando Pace he sure appeared to be a dandy four OL post game day reserve & has the look of having a long future here. I would not say that for GRob;).
 
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Angry Ram

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For those of you who discount PFF, do you disagree with Aaron Donald as the top performer in the NFL? Did ANY of you break down EVERY PLAY?

Yes.

No.

PFF can fuck off. It ruins football by worrying too much over dumb rankings and random stats.

I don't need some ranking that tells me Aaron Donald is the best DT in the league. I know that just by watching him play.
 

Merlin

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Right side struggled the most, strangely enough. Donnal actually did play respectably, but if he were to be gameplanned as a weakness by, say, the Patriots... I think it might go down differently.

Either way this OL is a steaming pile of feces. Might as well not play Saffold, doesn't really matter either way tbh.
 

JIMERAMS

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I think there's an argument for a lot of players being the top guy in the NFL. Aaron Donald is an easy evaluation. He also benefits from PFF's simplistic system.



I have in the past. And I found PFF's grading to be inaccurate. I've also talked to PFF's founders and others who worked there. I considered working with them back in the day when they had just started out and needed volunteers. I ultimately didn't because I didn't agree with their grading system. I still don't.

PFF's grading system treats football as a game of individual match-ups. PFF's "scouts" only look to see if a player's performance on a given play was a win, a loss, or neutral in his individual match-up. Some of you might say, "What's wrong with that?" Here's what's wrong with it. PFF doesn't attempt to understand schemes or responsibilities. They say they don't do that because it makes things too subjective. The truth is that they don't do it because they're not capable of doing it.(both do to knowledge limitations and time limitations)

Thus, PFF grades what they see as individual match-ups with no consideration to what the player was supposed to be doing. For example, let's say that we tell Aaron Donald that he's responsible for the B Gap. His assignment calls for him to occupy the B gap, tie up his blocker, and allow for Ogletree to shoot the A gap to make the play in the back-field. Let's say that Donald thinks he can make a bigger play by shooting the C gap. Donald shoots the C gap, beats his man, and gets a hand on the HB. However, Donald can't bring the HB down. Ogletree is shooting the A gap as the scheme calls for which makes it appear that Ogletree overran the play and is in the wrong spot. The HB runs right by Ogletree after Donald can't tackle him with an arm tackle, through the unoccupied B gap, and takes it 50 yards before he's tackled by a safety.

How do you think PFF grades that play? They give Donald a positive grade for penetrating into the back-field, beating his man, and forcing the runner to change direction. They give Ogletree a negative play for running through the wrong gap and completely missing the HB.

In real life, how do you think Rams coaches grade that play? They chew Donald out for abandoning his assignment. They tell Ogletree that he did the right thing on the play and would have had a TFL if Donald was where he was supposed to be.

That's the problem with PFF. What they do is analogous to assigning 20 different book critics to each read a chapter in a 20 chapter book, each rate the book based on their 1 chapter, and then average the ratings out for the book as a whole. You all would think that's stupid. In order to grade the book, you have to see the bigger picture. That means reading the entire book. You may get it right on some books based on 1 chapter because you can get a feel for the author's writing style, technical command, and how interesting the story is. But there will be a lot of books where you get it wrong.

That's what happens with PFF. They don't see the big picture. And it's why their grades are wrong on a lot of players.



It was hard to isolate Donnal's play with the entire OL performing badly. But the OL performed the worst it has in weeks. Maybe the worst it has since the 49ers game. I don't think that's a coincidence. In fact, on that 4th and 1 play late in the game, we ran left behind Donnal, Brown, and Barnes. The play got blown up. We've seen that plenty this year. But I didn't see any improvement with Donnal in the game. In fact, I saw a worse OL.

I'm also not going to make assumptions about Robinson's dedication when I have no inside knowledge of it.



I'd say the best case scenario is Leonard Davis. He was a penalty machine at OT but absolutely dominant when moved inside to OG. I actually do agree that it might be time to move Robinson inside to OG. Problem is that we don't have anyone to replace him at LT. And this draft class isn't looking good when it comes to LT prospects based on what I hear.

As for you saving it and cramming it down people's throats, that's an awfully childish and petty response to somebody disagreeing with you. I don't think it's necessary to try and threaten people out of disagreeing with me. But I guess that's just me.

Thank you jrry32 for explaining that to everyone. I just don't have the skills to do that.
 

OntarioRam

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Donnal played pretty well. Don't think he did any better than Robinson has played most weeks, however, right down to the ill advised penalties. And Robinson has faced some very strong defensive lines. Donnal, on the other hand, got the luxury of facing New Orleans. But at the same time, you have to be mindful LT is not his full time position. It is for G-Rob. At the end of the day Saffold is injured (again), so Robinson will be back in his usual spot next week I bet.
 

BonifayRam

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Donnal played pretty well. Don't think he did any better than Robinson has played most weeks, however, right down to the ill advised penalties. And Robinson has faced some very strong defensive lines. Donnal, on the other hand, got the luxury of facing New Orleans. But at the same time, you have to be mindful LT is not his full time position. It is for G-Rob. At the end of the day Saffold is injured (again), so Robinson will be back in his usual spot next week I bet.

I made it well known my present position is on GRob....its a big mistake to reinsert him at this time. The Saints defense has not played well but it does have two very good players on it. One was a Ram last season & he was an outstanding 3rd DT for us Nick Fairley. RDT Nick Fairley lines up against the Rams LEFT side of the OL. The Saints best defensive player is RDE Cam Jordan. Cam has more sacks than our ex all pro DE Rob Quinn.

Cam lined up against LT Saffold in the 1 quarter & for half of the 2nd quarter. It was Jordan vs Saffold when Saffold was injured. ORT Andrew Donnal who came in for OLT Saffold in the 2nd quarter. When Andrew Donnal lined up against Cam Jordan he worked very hard & held Cam at bay most of the time. Cam did get a sack of Goff but it was not from Donnal but came about when Fairley & Jordan were stunting & Jamon Brown failed to keep Cam contained as Andrew Donnal had.

Andrew Donnal is not a power run blocking OL'er who can make those big run blocks from the OT position but Andrew Donnal is a very good technician who uses his brain to outwork his opponents. His pass pro set up & positioning & foot work is far better to GRob's skills in this area. I would state this..... that until this past Sunday the Rams have seen very little of this type of work being done to help the offense from the OLT post.

P.S. it was the Saints left side DL that killed Goff in the 2nd half our right side OL went into total pass blocking fail mode. The starting TE's & RB's & Rob Havenstein were seriously ineffective in pass protection as the Saints DC overloaded our right wing with extra Blitzer's & it worked very well.