No one was satisfied with how that punt turned out

[Irish]

The NFL is a multi billion dollar league.

Pay your referees better, but mandate they are full time employees. If they don't deserve the pay check, get rid of them, and replace them with SEC, Big 12, ACC, whatever major conference referees you can. Those guys are used to immense pressure and calling important games as every game in college is important, probably more than the NFL even.

Incentivize good performance, eliminate poor performance.

 

[Dodgersrf]

Officiating CREWS are just that. They are a crew, put together at the start of each season, and work as a crew all year. Referees, are referees,=. Umpires are umpires. Side judges, etc...... They do not switch positions throughout the season.

I know a lot of people seem to think that because they are not "full time" officials, it somehow makes a difference. This gets brought up every time officiating comes into question. This sport just doesnt lend itself to having full time officials. They work ONE TIME a week, but they spend up to 40 hours EVERY WEEK preparing for, and "working" on the job.

Not sure what other "part-time" professions require the same sort of commitment. And for those who seem to think that making them "full-time" would somehow improve the level of performance, what would you have them do the other 6 days they are not working a game?

They already undergo extensive film study, receive regular and ongoing updates and communication from the league.

The biggest issue isn't with the officials themselves, its what they are being asked to do, with regards to how the league wants the game officiated. If there is one major problem, its the lack of consistency from crew to crew. Making them "full-time", isn't going to change that one bit.

There is one area where it would help
That area is knowing the rule book front to back. With all of its interpretations. Refs have openly admitted that, the rule book is tough to understand at times. I don't find that acceptable at all.

The biggest area though, is that many of the penalties the league has added are simply too tough to call with the human eye.

 

[CoachO]

There is one area where it would help
That area is knowing the rule book front to back. With all of its interpretations. Refs have openly admitted that, the rule book is tough to understand at times. I don't find that acceptable at all.

The biggest area though, is that many of the penalties the league has added are simply too tough to call with the human eye.

I agree the rules are "difficult". But the biggest thing to me, isn't necessarily the knowledge of the rule book,, its how the league wants it interpreted.

As I mentioned, there is not another sport that has made the wholesale changes in the rules, and they are all a by product of the lawsuits. They have directed the officials to error on the side of caution when it comes to interpreting these changes. These officials are given the directive by the league to enforce these constant changes in the rules.

No amount of "extra" training will alleviate that. Its still about humans making decisions based on how they are being instructed, and ultimately evaluated.

 

[drasconis]

[

How am I being disrespectful? I haven't called you any names. All I have done it point out things that are factual, when you seem to be the one who is speculating about what they do or don't do.
Have you ever officiated any sport? do you have any first hand knowledge of what goes into to this? You claim to be the customer here, like you have some stake in the games. Bottom line, we are all just fans, and this is nothing more than entertainment for us.
The players, coaches, and yes, even the officials have their livelihoods at stake here, and while it is far from a perfect system, it is what they have based on what the NFL wants.

1. Your claims as to my understanding of the converstaion here was clearly derogatory (you take this tone with most people).
2. What facts have you pointed out contrary to my own - not a single one. We both claim they do other work outside of reffing in the NFL (some are lawyers some are teachers) and we both claim that they put in a lot of hours during the season to prepare (yet somehow I "have little understanding of what this is all about").
3. Nope never officated more than little league baseball. Are we really going to go down the path of "you haven't done it so you can't critize or evaluate"? That is a bad argument and everyone knows it.
4. Hold on are you claiming that I as a fan of the Rams have no stake in the game??? By that measure what stake do you have (or any of us here)? Why bother even posting here?
5. Yes the system is set up as the NFL wants - not sure the results (the complaints every game) are what they want though (that is pure speculation by either of us). I agree that they want a safer sport and that may drive current policy - the question is can they make the reffing better (more consitant) even with that-that is discussion here.
6. You act like I am saying fire them all - I am not (though some probably should be). I am saying that for $170K you should be able to find and make it a full time job. Will some of these guys not do if it becomes full time - probably not (the lawyer will likely leave) but I think most will (and if they won't then I truly have to wonder if they aren't spread to thin in life - not blaming them but once agian reality of that much work). I think that taking most of these guys and saying for this job and what we pay we want a full time commitment this means increased offseason training and work, you are going to have to quit other jobs you have and focus on this is a resonable thing to do. I belive doing that would result in a better product for the players/coaches/ and fans and also for the officals in the long run.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Calling a holding penalty 20 yards behind a play, or on a player who has zero impact on the play, isn't good officiating. It's over officiating. And at least for me, that's the biggest issue in the NFL nowadays.

This is it.....Too much trying to make a call when "no call" is the most appropriate response. They remind me of players that are overwhelmed with a playbook and are thinking too much instead of just playing. That is, instead of officiating, they are thinking of all the new rules. Perhaps if they were full time, they could do more film study, maybe design some type of video simulator, where they make calls on the fly....Something, this is getting ridiculous.

 

[CoachO]

[

1. Your claims as to my understanding of the converstaion here was clearly derogatory (you take this tone with most people).
2. What facts have you pointed out contrary to my own - not a single one. We both claim they do other work outside of reffing in the NFL (some are lawyers some are teachers) and we both claim that they put in a lot of hours during the season to prepare (yet somehow I "have little understanding of what this is all about").
3. Nope never officated more than little league baseball. Are we really going to go down the path of "you haven't done it so you can't critize or evaluate"? That is a bad argument and everyone knows it.
4. Hold on are you claiming that I as a fan of the Rams have no stake in the game??? By that measure what stake do you have (or any of us here)? Why bother even posting here?
5. Yes the system is set up as the NFL wants - not sure the results (the complaints every game) are what they want though (that is pure speculation by either of us). I agree that they want a safer sport and that may drive current policy - the question is can they make the reffing better (more consitant) even with that-that is discussion here.
6. You act like I am saying fire them all - I am not (though some probably should be). I am saying that for $170K you should be able to find and make it a full time job. Will some of these guys not do if it becomes full time - probably not (the lawyer will likely leave) but I think most will (and if they won't then I truly have to wonder if they aren't spread to thin in life - not blaming them but once agian reality of that much work). I think that taking most of these guys and saying for this job and what we pay we want a full time commitment this means increased offseason training and work, you are going to have to quit other jobs you have and focus on this is a resonable thing to do. I belive doing that would result in a better product for the players/coaches/ and fans and also for the officals in the long run.

Who is attacking whom at this point?

You are making statements about the increased offseason training and work, as if you know what they do currently. That's the point I am trying to make. I do know what goes into it. I do have first hand knowledge of the off season programs they go through. So that is not speculation on my part.

I have taken the stance that this is not as much about the individual officials, as it is about the league and how they want the games officiated. You seem to place 100% of the "blame" for the bad calls on the officials themselves, somehow saying that if they were more focussed they would not make the same mistakes. If I misinterpret that, I apologize.

Why does the $$$ they make have anything to do with anything regarding how they do their job? They are paid what the current CBA says they should be. Their compensation should have ZERO to do with their employment status within the confines of how the league chooses to organize the staff.

Making a statement about who would or wouldn't "stay" in the job again, is pure speculation. It might influence your decision if you were put in that position, but how can anyone possibly know what someone else would do?

 

[CoachO]

This is it.....Too much trying to make a call when "no call" is the most appropriate response. They remind me of players that are overwhelmed with a playbook and are thinking too much instead of just playing. That is, instead of officiating, they are thinking of all the new rules. Perhaps if they were full time, they could do more film study, maybe design some type of video simulator, where they make calls on the fly....Something, this is getting ridiculous.

do you honestly think they aren't doing this already?

How much time is enough, before it gets to the point of not being productive anymore? Lets say they are made "full-time" employees of the league. Gimme your idea of what that would mean in terms of "more film study"

 

[drasconis]

Who is attacking whom at this point?

You are making statements about the increased offseason training and work, as if you know what they do currently. That's the point I am trying to make. I do know what goes into it. I do have first hand knowledge of the off season programs they go through. So that is not speculation on my part.

I have taken the stance that this is not as much about the individual officials, as it is about the league and how they want the games officiated. You seem to place 100% of the "blame" for the bad calls on the officials themselves, somehow saying that if they were more focussed they would not make the same mistakes. If I misinterpret that, I apologize.

Why does the $$$ they make have anything to do with anything regarding how they do their job? They are paid what the current CBA says they should be. Their compensation should have ZERO to do with their employment status within the confines of how the league chooses to organize the staff.

Making a statement about who would or wouldn't "stay" in the job again, is pure speculation. It might influence your decision if you were put in that position, but how can anyone possibly know what someone else would do?

1. I attack when attacked, treat people with respect get respect, not sure you realize how condescending you come off at times - and maybe I am taking it to harsh because you are attacking everyones ideas but supplying no suggestions yourself (a pet peave of mine so maybe I overreact to it).

2. you say you know what goes into the job in the offseason - great than actually tell us (take a previous post where you respond by knocking the idea of more film study, you say you know how much they do, but don't tell us where you believe or know they are at...so help us understand by giving detail)....are these guys working full time in the offseason also - are they full time employees in everything but name? Do you think it reasonable to do that and another job at the same time - is balance actually possible? I know what they claim in interviews about regular season and how much work goes in then, and I take them at their word. So yes it concerns me that they are doing other things at the same time - I believe this is a demanding job and to do it properly at the highest level a person can't be sleep deprived or distracted to a serious extent.

3. Money to me is a big issue. For several reasons: 1. a persons main focus generally be on their main source. (a professional making $120k at his main job will put focus on that over his $20K part tiem job teaching night school - just reality. A guys making $65K at his main job will put focus on his $170K part time job. Conflicts will occur, at some point choices will have to be made, that is simply life - not judging here just being realistic). 2. the money is high enough that it can be a full time job - not certain what the NFL is saving by not making them full time (this isn't McD's trying to keep cost down), and the amount is such that by itself they are in the top 5% of earners. Once again the salary is not so low as to force them to hold another job (like in the old days) (note I am not saying this amount is enough or fair, I am saying that it is a livable wage and beats most full time job pay - so it is NOT a limitation for the job status qualification). This goes to the argument of why not make them full time - what is the limiting factor - because it does not seem to be money.

4. This is a fan forum, 99% of the stuff on here is speculation. This entire conversation is speculation. So yes I can specualte that if they changed the job over to a full time year round job some of the current refs would stay and some would go. I make no specualtion as to % either way. I do specualte that those that make = or more outside of reffing are more likely to leave than those that make less...once again basic economic theory tells us this would be likely.

Coach you keep telling us you have great insight into this, but rather than participate you seem to keep repeating that "this is the system the NFL wants". It feels like you are just saying "live with it" - maybe you aren't but that is what it seems like. Most of us here are talking about how it can be improved. Is it your feeling that the training/education/practice the refs get is perfect now and it is just the NFL agenda/policy that causes problems or what would you change to improve things (or do you believe they are as good as they can get - realilty is perfection will never happen, which isa viable argument).

 

[LesBaker]

I agree the rules are "difficult". But the biggest thing to me, isn't necessarily the knowledge of the rule book,, its how the league wants it interpreted.

As I mentioned, there is not another sport that has made the wholesale changes in the rules, and they are all a by product of the lawsuits. They have directed the officials to error on the side of caution when it comes to interpreting these changes. These officials are given the directive by the league to enforce these constant changes in the rules.

No amount of "extra" training will alleviate that. Its still about humans making decisions based on how they are being instructed, and ultimately evaluated.

It's unfortunate that they are not more closely evaluated and trained. When the replacement refs were in place IMO they weren't doing any worse of a job but the outcry was disproportionate enough that the NFL caved in when they shouldn't have. So the league doesn't actually have the system in place they want. They wanted more evaluation and grading and a "bench" to promote from/demote to.

The union is the problem here.

 

[Warner4Prez]

Honestly, just make all penalties reviewable. Personal fouls, holding, PI...if there's "pressure" to make sure you get the call right, there should be the ability to oversight the possibility of human error.
This might help decrease the trigger happy nature of officials, which would bring a little more balance back to offense vs. defense.

 

[Selassie I]

Oh how I look forward to watching a Ram game were I don't remember anything about the calls made on the field by the refs other than - "Yep, good call". There was a time when that was the norm.

The norm these days is more along the lines of -The refs are determining the outcomes of the games with their subjective calls." It's almost like every ref is working from a different rule book. It's fucking horrible and it's fucking broken.

Continuing down the current path will completely eliminate the integrity of the game. That used to be more important than anything... and was a big reason for the implementation of replay reviews.

Now days... there is too much left to individual interpretation. That shit doesn't work... not if integrity is the goal. Strict rules should be easy to follow and enforce... What's going on now looks like a Chinese Fire Drill.

Just give me a fucking game were I don't feel like the ref had something to do with the outcome. For Fucks Sake.

The shit needs a major overhaul. Unless,,, you like having the ability to influence the outcome outside of the play on the field.

 

[LACHAMP46]

How much time is enough, before it gets to the point of not being productive anymore? Lets say they are made "full-time" employees of the league. Gimme your idea of what that would mean in terms of "more film study"

I'd say, 60 hours a week in season....of film review and game situation testing...10-12 hours a day...integrity of the game is at stake...no stone should be left unturned....maybe 5-10 hours of some type of physical training, eye training too...be in shape to make crucial calls, have your eyes ready to see said calls....and definitely 40+ hours a week off-season...review new changes and implement them in the training room, & maybe get involved with a lessor league (arena/lingerie /something) lol...seriously....integrity of the game is at stake...full time work to improve the product....it'll never be perfect, but they can strive to eliminate the obvious blown calls that damage the product & effect the game in a negative manner...
Like, are they reviewing their games TODAY with senior official, correcting & critiquing what mistakes were made? Telling them okay, this was done properly? Is there any fear of replacement? What are the penalties for continual substandard work? Just curious, thanks for your insider opinion...

 

[CoachO]

I'd say, 60 hours a week in season....of film review and game situation testing...10-12 hours a day...integrity of the game is at stake...no stone should be left unturned....maybe 5-10 hours of some type of physical training, eye training too...be in shape to make crucial calls, have your eyes ready to see said calls....and definitely 40+ hours a week off-season...review new changes and implement them in the training room, & maybe get involved with a lessor league (arena/lingerie /something) lol...seriously....integrity of the game is at stake...full time work to improve the product....it'll never be perfect, but they can strive to eliminate the obvious blown calls that damage the product & effect the game in a negative manner...
Like, are they reviewing their games TODAY with senior official, correcting & critiquing what mistakes were made? Telling them okay, this was done properly? Is there any fear of replacement? What are the penalties for continual substandard work? Just curious, thanks for your insider opinion...

WOW,,, so you think staring at a computer screen, or monitor for 8-10 hours a day is going to help their vision? LOL In what other profession are "employees" expected to "train" for 10 hours a day, to perform a 3 hour "job" once a week? Not to mention the logistics of bringing 150+ officials in for a 7 day work week. Are you suggesting they all be required to relocate to have the privilege of performing this job? I certainly hope you are not somebody's "boss" if this is your idea of fair work conditions. (that was a joke)

As to your question about them reviewing the games, I guarantee they are getting graded, and briefed on anything that happened in each game this week. I get the frustration, but this is simply overkill. People seem to be acting like these guys just get out of bed, and get on a plane the day of the game, and go work the game, then go back to their "day jobs", and then repeat the process next week.

I don't know of ANY profession that would require that sort of "training", including the PLAYERS who play the game.

As far as penalties for "substandard" performance. They are evaluated and graded on every play, whether they make a call or not. They are required to submit a review of any questionable plays, again, whether it was in their coverage area or not. Each official has a different mechanic and responsibility on every play. As far as "fear of replacement", they deal with that every week. At the end of each season, they are ranked by position, and if they are ranked in the bottom at their positions in consecutive years, they are not retained. Contrary to public opinion, there is turnover of the staff every year.

Guys gets "promoted" or switch positions and are usually moved to different crews. But to think there is no accountability for them, is just plain wrong. It seems people are of the assumption that the Union protects these officials, and makes them untouchable. That is not the case. They negotiate contracts, and as part of that contract, there is an evaluation program put it place. They are also there, to monitor the communications between the league and the individual officials. If the league tries to fine, or suspend an official, the Union is apprised of the reasons, and ensures due process is met. But they are not there to guarantee employment. They also monitor any public commentary made by the league, and that includes players, coaches, and league officials. And the NFL isn't the only league that does this. Why do you think that the penalties (fines) are so severe for publicly criticizing officials? And that applies to all sports, professional or otherwise.

I still maintain this is not a personnel problem as much as it is a league problem, based on the way they want the game officiated. The RULES are the problem here, not the officiating. It's the way the league wants the game to change, all in the name of safety, and they are more than willing to "tolerate" the perception that the officiating is substandard, as opposed to put the league at further risk of lawsuit.

The changes that have been made, and the way they instruct the officials to "error on the side of caution" has made these guys flag happy when there is any doubt that a "safety" penalty has occurred. It appears to be worse than it ever was, because of the technology behind the replays, and the shear number of plays that end being questioned.

 

[RhodyRams]

while I agree that 60 hours of film study may be excessive, I do question the fact that officials spend 40 hours a week as it is studying film. Most of these refs also have full time jobs and families. How in the world can you dedicate another 40 hours for the NFL, along with working as a professional lawyer, teacher, CPA or whatever and have a home life all at the same time. My feeling is they are given films by the NFL to study and maybe some will watch a few hours worth, but certainly not the full slate of 40 hours

 

[Philly5]

I was happy to see Tavon catch the ball and take it North South at full speed.

 

[CoachO]

while I agree that 60 hours of film study may be excessive, I do question the fact that officials spend 40 hours a week as it is studying film. Most of these refs also have full time jobs and families. How in the world can you dedicate another 40 hours for the NFL, along with working as a professional lawyer, teacher, CPA or whatever and have a home life all at the same time. My feeling is they are given films by the NFL to study and maybe some will watch a few hours worth, but certainly not the full slate of 40 hours

If you factor in the fact that they are required to be in the city the day before the game they are working, and that the entire crew is together reviewing and preparing for their game, its not really a that far fetched that they spend quite a few hours per week during the season. I agree 40 hours "in season" might be a stretch, but to think they are not putting in the time it takes IMO is kind of an assumption that seems to be based solely on the frustration of the weeks outcome. (this is meant to be a general comment, and not necessarily directed at you)

 

[LesBaker]

while I agree that 60 hours of film study may be excessive, I do question the fact that officials spend 40 hours a week as it is studying film. Most of these refs also have full time jobs and families. How in the world can you dedicate another 40 hours for the NFL, along with working as a professional lawyer, teacher, CPA or whatever and have a home life all at the same time. My feeling is they are given films by the NFL to study and maybe some will watch a few hours worth, but certainly not the full slate of 40 hours

I'd like to see some proof to back up 15 hours, let alone 40 lol.

 

[RhodyRams]

If you factor in the fact that they are required to be in the city the day before the game they are working, and that the entire crew is together reviewing and preparing for their game, its not really a that far fetched that they spend quite a few hours per week during the season. I agree 40 hours "in season" might be a stretch, but to think they are not putting in the time it takes IMO is kind of an assumption that seems to be based solely on the frustration of the weeks outcome. (this is meant to be a general comment, and not necessarily directed at you)

I was basing my 40 hours on what you had stated earlier :

I know a lot of people seem to think that because they are not "full time" officials, it somehow makes a difference. This gets brought up every time officiating comes into question. This sport just doesnt lend itself to having full time officials. They work ONE TIME a week, but they spend up to 40 hours EVERY WEEK preparing for, and "working" on the job.

and this:

Do you have any idea how much time and training they do?

I have an idea, based on first hand conversations with current and past officials. They have weekly communication, and video updates on every "unusual" situation that takes place throughout the week around the league.

that the 40 hours they spent was a given,hence my reply. I just dont see them spending that amount of time on game film. No way no how

so considering now you are saying 40 hours a season, brings me to math 16 games 3 hours a game = 48 hours. If they are required to be in the city the day before the game, and they are given film to look over (study seems to be the wrong word) is this time spent under the watchful eye of another Union official, or is it on their word that they do this?

Inquiring minds would really like to know the ins and out of a day in the life of an NFL official. Since you have had "first hand conversations with current and past officials" then maybe during the off season, maybe one of them can visit us here for a little Q&A session like a few players have done

 

[Thordaddy]

Major League Baseball has the best officiating there is, they are full time ,most of the NFL referees in my estimation a preening peacocks who just wanna be on TV, and FWIW make as many bad calls as the replacements ever did,the league needs to do better.

 

[CoachO]

I was basing my 40 hours on what you had stated earlier :



and this:



that the 40 hours they spent was a given,hence my reply. I just dont see them spending that amount of time on game film. No way no how

so considering now you are saying 40 hours a season, brings me to math 16 games 3 hours a game = 48 hours. If they are required to be in the city the day before the game, and they are given film to look over (study seems to be the wrong word) is this time spent under the watchful eye of another Union official, or is it on their word that they do this?

Inquiring minds would really like to know the ins and out of a day in the life of an NFL official.If you have "first hand conversations with current and past officials" then maybe during the off season, one of them can visit us here for a little Q&A seesion like a few players have done

No. You are misunderstanding my comments. Never said they spend 40 hours a season.

They spend anywhere from 25- 35 hours every week reviewing game tapes and video conferencing with league officials. And supervisors. They are given game reports and required to submit reports on any questionable plays.

Never meant to insinuate they spend that time just watching game film. The players don't even do that. Lol.