Mini Ice Age may be around the corner.

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fearsomefour

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I disagree that they're coming up with these studies to get grants, the guys I see are legitimately concerned and pretty convinced. At any rate I know that I'm not going to change your mind on this, and I really don't have the desire to try anyway. Besides, I focus on what's happening off our planet, so I'm not nearly versed enough to get into any technical arguments on the matter, other than trying to remember what they've shown me and told me about their work.
Not saying all are coming from this perspective....many are. Its like any study with a conflict of interest. That said, there is no point in either side really trying to convince the other (in terms of individuals) since, even if it is true, there is nothing to be done. I will just sit here in my smug self righteousness (I am not joking with that, I am very smug that I am correct) until they come to take more taxes and take away personal freedoms with no real basis to do so.
Until then I don't much care. Human nature has a self centered ego fed need to be important. Whenever I hear a preacher rattling on about the end times I wonder about his age, about his station in life and about how fragile his ego is. It gives his life purpose and meaning. The big scary boogeyman has been coming for us for millennia.
If it is all true then I just want the disasters and chaos broadcast in HD....the real reality TV.
Its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine....
 

bluecoconuts

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I really wish news sites would stop pushing the ice age crap, because the Maunder Minimum is not about that at all. The scientists didn't say there was going to be another little ice age either, they just said the conditions for another Maunder Minimum (low sunspots) is likely. People have been jumping to the conclusion even though its a misnomer (summers were normal, only winters were colder during the little ice age).. Plus the Maunder Minimum happened in the middle of the 300 year little ice age (again, just colder winters) and did not cause it.

Low sunspots MAY lead to slightly colder than normal winters, but we have NOT definitively linked the two together.
 

bluecoconuts

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Not saying all are coming from this perspective....many are. Its like any study with a conflict of interest. That said, there is no point in either side really trying to convince the other (in terms of individuals) since, even if it is true, there is nothing to be done. I will just sit here in my smug self righteousness (I am not joking with that, I am very smug that I am correct) until they come to take more taxes and take away personal freedoms with no real basis to do so.
Until then I don't much care. Human nature has a self centered ego fed need to be important. Whenever I hear a preacher rattling on about the end times I wonder about his age, about his station in life and about how fragile his ego is. It gives his life purpose and meaning. The big scary boogeyman has been coming for us for millennia.
If it is all true then I just want the disasters and chaos broadcast in HD....the real reality TV.
Its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine....

Where is the conflict of interest? The vast majority of climate scientists agree, and research grants don't exactly make scientists rich.
 

beej

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Where is the conflict of interest? The vast majority of climate scientists agree, and research grants don't exactly make scientists rich.
I have a brother working on grants through monsanto. as long as the grants came in he had a job but as soon as the grants ran out, he had to look for work. He told me that they had to keep showing promising data to keep the money coming. But eventually Monsanto pulled the plug on their research.
 

bluecoconuts

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I have a brother working on grants through monsanto. as long as the grants came in he had a job but as soon as the grants ran out, he had to look for work. He told me that they had to keep showing promising data to keep the money coming. But eventually Monsanto pulled the plug on their research.

I know how grants work, I have to get them for my work as well. Government grants work differently than private grants. Either way, most scientists aren't fudging data to get grants, because their work gets read by other scientists and if it cannot be repeated then they are discredited and lose their jobs. Faking data is far worse for a scientist than not having promising research. One means you may need to go to a different study for money, the other means you need a new line of work because nobody will hire you.

I've had to go and talk about how my data isn't bringing back the results I hoped it would, and I will again some day. Its a lot easier to do that then explain how I faked it. One a journal is published others read it, including those who don't want it to be true, and students looking to get into the field. If the data is fudged, it eventually gets out. The numbers that climate scientists published are so scrutinized by those who don't want it to be true (including billion dollar industries, such as oil) they would catch it quickly.
 

beej

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I know how grants work, I have to get them for my work as well. Government grants work differently than private grants. Either way, most scientists aren't fudging data to get grants, because their work gets read by other scientists and if it cannot be repeated then they are discredited and lose their jobs. Faking data is far worse for a scientist than not having promising research. One means you may need to go to a different study for money, the other means you need a new line of work because nobody will hire you.

I've had to go and talk about how my data isn't bringing back the results I hoped it would, and I will again some day. Its a lot easier to do that then explain how I faked it. One a journal is published others read it, including those who don't want it to be true, and students looking to get into the field. If the data is fudged, it eventually gets out. The numbers that climate scientists published are so scrutinized by those who don't want it to be true (including billion dollar industries, such as oil) they would catch it quickly.
I see what you're saying. but at the same time, from a layman's perspective, we don't see data from Scientists nearly so much as we see articles from journalists reporting data from scientists. Journalists don't seem to go through the same scrutiny as what you have to go through. Most of us wouldn't understand the data if we had to read it ourselves.

so we get conflicting stories. on my newsfeed today I hear the oceans may rise 20-25 feet in the next 20 years because of global warming and we may be headed for a new ice age.

On any given day you hear that a new study tells you that eggs are good for you and that eggs will kill you. Chocolate will heal cancer and it's killing America. Store bought Vitamins??? sheesh who knows!

So I don't know, you are a lot more knowledgeable on this subject than I am. Most of the time, I just base my opinion on who funded the study. Chicken farm study always agree that eggs are good for ya. Hershey's is trying to cure cancer, I'm sure.

as far as global warming, I don't live anywhere other than where I live. But the winters have been pretty harsh the last few years, as harsh as I've seen ever. And in the summer time, until this week, it's been too cool to get in my pool. And last year we barely swam at all because it was too cool. The last 2 years late frosts killed my peach blossoms and for the first time ever I deer hunted in the snow in mid November. Maybe things are happening in other places to counter act that but I just see what I see.
 

fearsomefour

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Where is the conflict of interest? The vast majority of climate scientists agree, and research grants don't exactly make scientists rich.
You've had the convo with Beej basically.
Confirmation bias is huge in this field as well as others.
 

Athos

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as far as global warming, I don't live anywhere other than where I live. But the winters have been pretty harsh the last few years, as harsh as I've seen ever. And in the summer time, until this week, it's been too cool to get in my pool. And last year we barely swam at all because it was too cool. The last 2 years late frosts killed my peach blossoms and for the first time ever I deer hunted in the snow in mid November. Maybe things are happening in other places to counter act that but I just see what I see.

Weather is different from climate....vastly different.

And I'm speaking generally here, not targeting you or anyone else, but if people wanna bury their heads in the sand and say fossil fuels, dirty coal, oil, etc, DOESN'T have a negative impact on the world, more power to them. But they're wrong. We're fucked the world over. Maybe it's too late to change shit, maybe not.

But I really don't see why we wouldn't be trying to rectify mistakes of decades and centuries. Humans really do only ever care about themselves on the whole.

And the naysayers will be the first ones crying when the trees are gone. Or if/when the ozone gets stripped apart. Which will happen I imagine. Just a matter of how far down the line. A century? Two? Three?

Fossil fuels don't replenish themselves.....better start now than drag our sorry asses for a few more decades playing willy nilly with a "shit happens" mentality.
 

bluecoconuts

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I see what you're saying. but at the same time, from a layman's perspective, we don't see data from Scientists nearly so much as we see articles from journalists reporting data from scientists. Journalists don't seem to go through the same scrutiny as what you have to go through. Most of us wouldn't understand the data if we had to read it ourselves.

so we get conflicting stories. on my newsfeed today I hear the oceans may rise 20-25 feet in the next 20 years because of global warming and we may be headed for a new ice age.

On any given day you hear that a new study tells you that eggs are good for you and that eggs will kill you. Chocolate will heal cancer and it's killing America. Store bought Vitamins??? sheesh who knows!

So I don't know, you are a lot more knowledgeable on this subject than I am. Most of the time, I just base my opinion on who funded the study. Chicken farm study always agree that eggs are good for ya. Hershey's is trying to cure cancer, I'm sure.

as far as global warming, I don't live anywhere other than where I live. But the winters have been pretty harsh the last few years, as harsh as I've seen ever. And in the summer time, until this week, it's been too cool to get in my pool. And last year we barely swam at all because it was too cool. The last 2 years late frosts killed my peach blossoms and for the first time ever I deer hunted in the snow in mid November. Maybe things are happening in other places to counter act that but I just see what I see.

You can read the scientific journals with the data included, the summaries that get put on websites usually take data out to make it easier to read for non-scientist readers. The biggest issue is that they usually charge you to read the journals, however if you connect through a university's internet you'll typically be able to download all the journals you want for free.

You may get conflicting stories from different news outlets that may misread things, but usually you can see what the scientists actually say. This little ice age is a good example of that, the study they were talking about didn't say a single thing about weather. What happened is the team said it should produce conditions (on the sun) not seen since the Maunder Minimum, and some journalists probably googled what that was, and then ran with the ice age crap without actually looking into it. That's one of the issues with the news outlets, but that's not the scientists fault. In fact when someone finally went to ask her (the lead scientist for the study) about the ice age, she laughed about it and said they were reading it wrong. She said it might lead to some colder winters, but the idea that another ice age with brutal Hollywood like weather is silly. Essentially what I said before. She isn't a climate scientist, she's an Astrophysicist, and made a prediction about the Sun. In fact it still needs to be confirmed, and some of my colleagues have already looked over a lot of the data to try and confirm it (so far they've indicated that her team appears to be correct in their assessment that we will have a period of low sunspot activity).

Another issue is that there are scientific studies and there are "scientific" studies... A lot of pseudoscience will make bullshit claims about how ____ magic food will help cure cancer and other things like that, and it's all bullshit. You just have to ignore that stuff really.

Global warming is a bit of a misnomer as well, which is why they've switched to saying climate change. Climate is pretty complex and a lot of different things factor into it.. Again, I'm not a climate scientist, so I don't know the nitty gritty details, but I know it's pretty complex. Some winters will be brutal some will not. Even this last winter, saw some especially harsh ones on the East Coast. However much of the world saw record hot winters, and the overall global temperature was the hottest on record. So people on the East Coast had a very cold winter and many came to the conclusion that "Well it's cold here, so it must be wrong" but that's not accurate. Plus climate change can lead to harsher blizzards due to the instability of the climate.

Winter15NOAA.jpg





In terms of fudging data, I wont say it doesn't happen, because it does. However if the data for climate change was being fudged we'd most certainly know it by now. You can't fake that much data for decades and not have things come out. The more we learn the more accurate our predictions become (which is why you may see things change over time), but that is the same as any field. Hell in my field (Astrophysics) we just found out that Pluto is larger than we originally had thought it was thanks to New Horizons. As our understanding of the universe and our solar system has grown we've changed the classification of Pluto to a planet to a dwarf planet, we discover new things all the time that change how we conduct work. We just discovered a new particle, the pentaquark, that could have some big changes to how we see the structure of matter. That's the good thing about science, there's always more to learn and discover in this age. That's why it doesn't typically pay to fake data anymore, if you get caught you're screwed, and if you do and someone else proves you wrong (but they don't bust you for faking it) then your data is meaningless anyway. It's hard to get picked up for new projects or universities, or even get yourself published if you faked a bunch of data that was disproved by a later study.
 

Prime Time

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Always follow the money trail. The climate is cyclical. Always has been and always will be. How much humanity is affecting things is a question that has not been answered irrefutably no matter how much some claim it has been.

It's a real good idea to limit the amount of damage we do to this planet. But I have a sneaking suspicion that government is trying to control one more area of our lives - what cars we can drive, where to set our thermostat, how much we can use our air-conditioning, etc.

Whenever I come across those who try to manipulate me into believing what they believe by way of fear tactics and name-calling, I pretty much know who I'm dealing with and head in the other direction. Just present the facts, without secretly altering them to make your case, and I'll consider it.

Just out of curiosity, why was "global warming" changed to "climate change?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...data-is-the-biggest-science-scandal-ever.html

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...oocy-nasa-fudged-data-make-case-global-warmi/

http://www.principia-scientific.org...data-rigging-scandal-rocks-us-government.html

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jul/08/muir-russell-climategate-climate-science

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesta...0-new-e-mails-rock-the-global-warming-debate/
 

bluecoconuts

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Just out of curiosity, why was "global warming" changed to "climate change?"

Because it's more accurate. The climate is changing, overall temperatures will rise, but as instability comes we see harsher weather patterns, thus more catastrophic events, hurricianes, storms, blizzards, etc. When people hear global warming they assume its just the planet getting hotter, but its much more complicated than that.
 

fearsomefour

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Lets agree that information changes.
I think we all agree making things more efficient and less polluting is a great thing, regardless of believe in the. data collection.
Common sense would determine that no matter how much every person in the US changes the affect will be minimal given the billions of Chinese, Indians and others burning coal everyday.
As a sidebar, weren't we all supposed to be paying $11/gallon in the US by now, crushed by "peak oil". Where did that fear mongering tactic go?
 

RamFan503

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Because it's more accurate. The climate is changing, overall temperatures will rise, but as instability comes we see harsher weather patterns, thus more catastrophic events, hurricianes, storms, blizzards, etc. When people hear global warming they assume its just the planet getting hotter, but its much more complicated than that.
During the last large hurricane season, the experts were almost in unison saying that it was just the beginning and all their models indicated there would be 3-5 years of even worse activity. We have had some of the most mild hurricane seasons since that time. 15 years ago, I went to a presentation where the climatologist showed all the latest models and claimed that the drought we were going through was going to continue for the next... wait for it... 3-5 years and it would be a cycle that would continue more frequently after that. The next two years, we had record rainfalls. In the 70s during the gas shortages, we were told that an ice age was imminent.

The change from "Global Warming" to "Global Instability" and "Climate Change" is not just about semantics and trying to be more accurate IMO. It is more about several groups trying to come up with their own formulas and models to predict the future (in many cases toward a political end) and being faced with the fact that none of these new models indicate a real constant or causal relationship across them.

Toxins are toxins. They are bad and it is always a good idea to minimize them. But using data gathered as they did in the 90s and early 2000s IMO led to a lot of false assumptions. They have since corrected some of their techniques and now are faced with even more questions that they thought they knew the answers to before.

So while we wring our hands and grip about what we can do to save the planet, countries like India, Russia, China and much of the Mid East is going unchecked and polluting the shit out of anything and everything if it means production. And then we are supposed to feel guilty because we have yet to sign onto Nato treaties and other world ploys that would only affect production in the US as virtually all of them are per capita limits. If someone would ONCE propose a world wide emissions treaty based on production (and not by penalizing production), it would not only finally be something that could be effective, but would encourage real environmentalism while benefitting those who invent technologies that produce more while polluting less and also using less resources.

Going backward while the rest of the world pollutes with impunity is not the answer.
 

bluecoconuts

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During the last large hurricane season, the experts were almost in unison saying that it was just the beginning and all their models indicated there would be 3-5 years of even worse activity. We have had some of the most mild hurricane seasons since that time. 15 years ago, I went to a presentation where the climatologist showed all the latest models and claimed that the drought we were going through was going to continue for the next... wait for it... 3-5 years and it would be a cycle that would continue more frequently after that. The next two years, we had record rainfalls. In the 70s during the gas shortages, we were told that an ice age was imminent.

The change from "Global Warming" to "Global Instability" and "Climate Change" is not just about semantics and trying to be more accurate IMO. It is more about several groups trying to come up with their own formulas and models to predict the future (in many cases toward a political end) and being faced with the fact that none of these new models indicate a real constant or causal relationship across them.

Toxins are toxins. They are bad and it is always a good idea to minimize them. But using data gathered as they did in the 90s and early 2000s IMO led to a lot of false assumptions. They have since corrected some of their techniques and now are faced with even more questions that they thought they knew the answers to before.

So while we wring our hands and grip about what we can do to save the planet, countries like India, Russia, China and much of the Mid East is going unchecked and polluting the crap out of anything and everything if it means production. And then we are supposed to feel guilty because we have yet to sign onto Nato treaties and other world ploys that would only affect production in the US as virtually all of them are per capita limits. If someone would ONCE propose a world wide emissions treaty based on production (and not by penalizing production), it would not only finally be something that could be effective, but would encourage real environmentalism while benefitting those who invent technologies that produce more while polluting less and also using less resources.

Going backward while the rest of the world pollutes with impunity is not the answer.

That's more about the politics of it, I'm not really focused on that. I think it's stupidly become a political topic, and that takes away from the seriousness of it, but I'm more interested in the science aspect of it.

So does it exist? The science is pretty conclusive that it does. Are we responsible? Again, the science certainly indicates that we are. What politicians do with the information is something different, but it'll cost us much more in the long run to do nothing than it will to try to act now. I can bitch about the mind boggling stupidity of the scientific illiterate persons in government, but it doesn't matter really. I can't change it, and the lack of understanding of science from our general population is disappointing, but again I'm not going to be able to change it. That's another topic entirely though...
 

RamFan503

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Stu
That's more about the politics of it, I'm not really focused on that. I think it's stupidly become a political topic, and that takes away from the seriousness of it, but I'm more interested in the science aspect of it.

So does it exist? The science is pretty conclusive that it does. Are we responsible? Again, the science certainly indicates that we are. What politicians do with the information is something different, but it'll cost us much more in the long run to do nothing than it will to try to act now. I can bitch about the mind boggling stupidity of the scientific illiterate persons in government, but it doesn't matter really. I can't change it, and the lack of understanding of science from our general population is disappointing, but again I'm not going to be able to change it. That's another topic entirely though...
Unfortunately, the politics of it is inevitable. And the fact is that the US has been doing more to correct past woes than the fast developing nations of the world. Global instability is not a new thing and I would not venture to say that man made pollution does not contribute to it. The amount of contribution is debatable but living on a planet where large areas are free to pollute is sure to create a less than desirable condition. My suggestion is to go after the worst first and work from there if you really want to do something that MIGHT counteract or subdue the human effects.
 

bluecoconuts

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Unfortunately, the politics of it is inevitable. And the fact is that the US has been doing more to correct past woes than the fast developing nations of the world. Global instability is not a new thing and I would not venture to say that man made pollution does not contribute to it. The amount of contribution is debatable but living on a planet where large areas are free to pollute is sure to create a less than desirable condition. My suggestion is to go after the worst first and work from there if you really want to do something that MIGHT counteract or subdue the human effects.

The U.S. is the second most polluting country, so focusing on reducing ourselves would be a big start.
 

bluecoconuts

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http://www.numbeo.com/pollution/rankings_by_country.jsp

Pollution Index for Country 2015 Mid Year

103 nations are listed with America at #83, while China is at #5, India at #23, and Russia at #34.

I'm going to take a closer look at the site, but a quick glance showed me this:

"Most of our data are based on perceptions (opinions) from visitors of this website"

Again, I'm gonna take a closer look, but I don't know how scientific that data is. As far as I know, Ghana simply doesn't have the industry to be the most polluting nation on Earth though.
 

Prime Time

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I'm going to take a closer look at the site, but a quick glance showed me this:

"Most of our data are based on perceptions (opinions) from visitors of this website"

Again, I'm gonna take a closer look, but I don't know how scientific that data is. As far as I know, Ghana simply doesn't have the industry to be the most polluting nation on Earth though.

How about this one? America is at #38

http://epi.yale.edu/epi/issue-ranking/air-quality