Wow...Raiders firing Allen already

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Rmfnlt

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I can't think of anything that would rekindle may passion for the Rams more than a MM's return to the organization.

I just couldn't see Jeff Fisher and Mike Martz together.

The clash of the egos! :)
 
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Bill Callahan
Tom Cable
Hue Jackson

All three of those guys proved they could win. Unless there's some other issue I'm not aware of. I know Tom Cable had anger issues, but still, 8-8 and made them competitive.

Art Shell was a mistake, and so was Lane Kiffin.

I disagree with Callahan, the other two I'd have given more time, Cable was trending in the right direction he should have had another year. Unless you do something really bad to get sacked after 1 year is really poor, especially when that one year isn't particularly bad. Maybe one of those two would have made a difference, maybe not. I don't think they're evidence in themselves that you don't sack a HC after 3 years if they don't bring the desired results, although less than 3 years I'd agree.
 

Force16X

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is it just me or should the Raiders change their motto from "commitment to excellence" to "commitment to high first round draft picks" ?
 

Stranger

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Bill Callahan
Tom Cable
Hue Jackson

All three of those guys proved they could win. Unless there's some other issue I'm not aware of. I know Tom Cable had anger issues, but still, 8-8 and made them competitive.

Art Shell was a mistake, and so was Lane Kiffin.
Well, Cable was a woman beater, or did those charges, by multiple women, get dis-proven or dropped? Not sure that would have played-out well in today's post-Rice NFL.
 

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I can't think of anything that would rekindle may passion for the Rams more than a MM's return to the organization. I never had a single complain about him or the way he coached. What I saw is someone confident enough in himself to throw-out conventional "wisdom" in order to try something new and innovative. I've always had the utmost respect for that approach.

I agree to a point but MM did have his flaws. Time management and feuding with front office staff being two of them. Of course who could have gotten along with Shaw and Zygmunt?

Lions: "When even players began to complain of Martz's pass-happy and unbalanced offense, the Lions fired him in the offseason."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martz

After that firing the Lions went 0-16 the following season

49ers: "Martz was let go as offensive coordinator after the 49ers named Singletary Head Coach. Singletary reportedly wanted more of a ball-control, run-oriented offense than Martz is known for crafting."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martz

Bears: "Martz was known for aggressive play-calling, and the calls for a pass-happy offense led to quarterback Jay Cutler getting repeatedly sacked. The issue caused Cutler to say to Martz "Tell him I said fuck him!" in a game against the Minnesota Vikings in 2011. On January 3, 2012, Martz resigned his position with the Bears. He reportedly resigned over philosophical differences with Bears head coach Lovie Smith."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martz

Jay Cutler on Mike Martz:

How do you sum up what went wrong with Mike Martz?
"You have to buy in. You have to believe it and I think everyone did. There comes a point where you have to give a little bit, and you've got to take a look at the whole offense as a whole, what we're good at, and what we're bad at. You have to be able to change a little bit, and I think that's kind of where we messed up a little bit. There wasn't as much flexibility as I think we needed."

Did Mike Martz run the offense like it was still 1999? Did he ever adapt to 2012 NFL?
"I think there is something to be said about that. Mike mentally being able to script up some plays and draw some stuff in the ground. There's no one like Mike. He can get guys open better than anyone I've really ever been around. He's very, very, very, smart. They had Orlando Pace [at left tackle]. They had some dudes up front where you were able to take seven-step drops.

I don't think defenses were as evolved as they are now. Safeties were different. Not every team had a defensive end that was going to be able to sack you if you keep taking seven-step drops. It was a different time, different game. Defenses I think since have kind of caught up to that. So it's one of those things. We gave it a shot. I still respect Mike. He's one of the brightest minds in the game."

http://deadspin.com/5917520/jay-cutler-says-modern-football-has-left-mike-martz-behind

From January of last year: The Oakland Raiders interviewed Martz for the OC position.

"The Raiders interviewed Mike Martz for their offensive-coordinator vacancy in an attempt to find an upgrade over the fired Greg Knapp, a person familiar with the situation said.

Dennis Allen also said he isn't averse to working with an offensive coordinator who has experience as a head coach. Martz coached the St. Louis Rams from 2000-05, earning a reputation as someone who can get the most out of his offense."

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22362...e-martz-interviewed-offensive-coordinator-job

Maybe if Allen had hired Martz he wouldn't be getting fired. Who knows?

Martz's 100 mile an hour, never take your foot off the pedal, approach to offense would be great fun to watch right now with Austin Davis and the rest of the cast. Fisher would blow a fuse though because it doesn't fit in with his approach. Shottenheimer for better or worse does, alas.
 

LesBaker

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Bill Callahan
Tom Cable
Hue Jackson

All three of those guys proved they could win. Unless there's some other issue I'm not aware of. I know Tom Cable had anger issues, but still, 8-8 and made them competitive.

Art Shell was a mistake, and so was Lane Kiffin.

Gruden actually turned that ball club around big time.
 

Stranger

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I agree to a point but MM did have his flaws. Time management and feuding with front office staff being two of them. Of course who could have gotten along with Shaw and Zygmunt?
Exactly. I actually take Martz's arguing with that F.O. as a positive-sign.

Lions:"When even players began to complain of Martz's pass-happy and unbalanced offense, the Lions fired him in the offseason."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martz

After that firing the Lions went 0-16 the following season
Yup

49ers: "Martz was let go as offensive coordinator after the 49ers named Singletary Head Coach. Singletary reportedly wanted more of a ball-control, run-oriented offense than Martz is known for crafting."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martz
I don't have anything to say about the Singletary-Whiner era, except that Singletary proved to be totally old-school and totally inflexible. So, firing an innovator like Martz isn't surprising at all.

Bears: "Martz was known for aggressive play-calling, and the calls for a pass-happy offense led to quarterback Jay Cutler getting repeatedly sacked. The issue caused Cutler to say to Martz "Tell him I said freak him!" in a game against the Minnesota Vikings in 2011. On January 3, 2012, Martz resigned his position with the Bears. He reportedly resigned over philosophical differences with Bears head coach Lovie Smith."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Martz

Jay Cutler on Mike Martz:

How do you sum up what went wrong with Mike Martz?
"You have to buy in. You have to believe it and I think everyone did. There comes a point where you have to give a little bit, and you've got to take a look at the whole offense as a whole, what we're good at, and what we're bad at. You have to be able to change a little bit, and I think that's kind of where we messed up a little bit. There wasn't as much flexibility as I think we needed."

Did Mike Martz run the offense like it was still 1999? Did he ever adapt to 2012 NFL?
"I think there is something to be said about that. Mike mentally being able to script up some plays and draw some stuff in the ground. There's no one like Mike. He can get guys open better than anyone I've really ever been around. He's very, very, very, smart. They had Orlando Pace [at left tackle]. They had some dudes up front where you were able to take seven-step drops.

I don't think defenses were as evolved as they are now. Safeties were different. Not every team had a defensive end that was going to be able to sack you if you keep taking seven-step drops. It was a different time, different game. Defenses I think since have kind of caught up to that. So it's one of those things. We gave it a shot. I still respect Mike. He's one of the brightest minds in the game."

http://deadspin.com/5917520/jay-cutler-says-modern-football-has-left-mike-martz-behind
As far at the Bears go, there is this post-Martz analysis which paints a very different picture....

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-s...-vindicated-former-bears-oc-deserves-apology/

Mike Martz Vindicated....Former Bears OC Deserves Apology
By Steve Huisel, December 13, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Martz.jpg

"Tell Mike Martz go ..... yourself." All Bears fans remember the TV cameras picking up Jay Cutler yelling that at the sideline. Bears fans laughed, and all of Chicago agreed. Martz was the guy who was "responsible" for the 24th ranked offense that averaged 22 points a game. If the Bears would just launch Martz, and his seven step drops, the team could be a top 10 offense. Bear nation envisioned greatness like the green and gold up north. Well, Bear fans got their wish and Martz was shown the door. Problem solved right? The answer to that is a BIG FAT NO! The Bears currently rank 28th in the NFL behind offensive juggernauts such as the Brandon Weeden led Cleveland Browns and the Jake Locker led Tennessee Titans. This is an offense that has the Bears single season reception record holder Brandon Marshall, Matt Forte, and promising rookie Alshon Jeffery. If you compare that to last years squad who featured "Mr. First Down" Roy Williams, Johnny Knox, and Forte, the talent isn't even close. This team features a legitimate one two punch, something the Bears have never had. There's no reason this squad should bad. Fans might point to the offensive line, but this is the same line the Bears had out there last year minus Frank Omiyale. If anyone thinks Frank is a difference maker, I ask you to please stop watching the Bears.

Before Cutler went down last year, Martz had the Bears offense rolling. They were averaging 27 points a game, and the team looked primed to make another playoff run. Unfortunately, the injury occurred and there wasn't a capable backup on the squad. Sure Martz did some crazy things, but he ran a offense. It wasn't predictable, and he was always adding new wrinkles to the game plan. The 2012 Bears have turned into a very predictable group. They can't run the ball and they can only find ways to get Brandon Marshall open. I've never coached a football game in my life, and I'm pretty sure I could find a way to get Marshall open. If Martz could average 27 points a game last year with that rag tag group, I'm sure the numbers would be even better with Marshall and Jeffery.

The 2012 Bears have also struggled to find ways to use Matt Forte. Tice has used his as a straight ahead runner all year and can't figure out how to use him as receiver. This was Mike Martz greatest strength. He helped turn Forte from an average back to a premier back. He was able to get him matched up against linebackers and make him the premier pass catching running back in the league. While Cutler might be cussing out Martz, Forte should be thanking him for his fat pay check.

Mike Martz wasn't perfect by any means but he never deserved the criticism he received. He worked miracles with the lack of talent he had last year, and it's to bad he didn't get a shot to work with this group.

From January of last year: The Oakland Raiders interviewed Martz for the OC position.

"The Raiders interviewed Mike Martz for their offensive-coordinator vacancy in an attempt to find an upgrade over the fired Greg Knapp, a person familiar with the situation said.

Dennis Allen also said he isn't averse to working with an offensive coordinator who has experience as a head coach. Martz coached the St. Louis Rams from 2000-05, earning a reputation as someone who can get the most out of his offense."

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22362...e-martz-interviewed-offensive-coordinator-job

Maybe if Allen had hired Martz he wouldn't be getting fired. Who knows?
Yup, impossible to say as the organization doesn't seem to behave rationally.

Martz's 100 mile an hour, never take your foot off the pedal, approach to offense would be great fun to watch right now with Austin Davis and the rest of the cast. Fisher would blow a fuse though because it doesn't fit in with his approach. Shottenheimer for better or worse does, alas.
I was actually commenting about Mike taking over the HC role. I agree, Mike would not fit as an OC under Fish.
 

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I was actually commenting about Mike taking over the HC role. I agree, Mike would not fit as an OC under Fish.

Oh goodness no. Martz as HC didn't even cross my mind. That ship sailed a long time. Or else why hasn't he been offered that job by 32 teams in the NFL? You would think that with the winning record he compiled that Martz would have gotten an HC gig, or at least an offer or an interview, with someone by now. He must really have a bad rep around the league.

I know MM is 63 and has had some serious health problems in the past but he's not too old to re-enter the league at some coaching position. It's a shame really. What a brilliant mind.

Thanks for the article I will read it later.
 

Stranger

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Oh goodness no. Martz as HC didn't even cross my mind. That ship sailed a long time. Or else why hasn't he been offered that job by 32 teams in the NFL? You would think that with the winning record he compiled that Martz would have gotten an HC gig, or at least an offer or an interview, with someone by now. He must really have a bad rep around the league.

I know MM is 63 and has had some serious health problems in the past but he's not too old to re-enter the league at some coaching position. It's a shame really. What a brilliant mind.

Thanks for the article I will read it later.
I think Mike is honest when he said that the Rams basically destroyed his credibility as a HC, and essentially blacklisted him from the other teams.

When I look back, I still can't figure out what Mike did to get himself fired, other than argue with a totally dysfunctional, backstapping, psychopathic front office. I know people said he became paranoid, but so would any other "normal" person put in that situation.
 

Angry Ram

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I disagree with Callahan, the other two I'd have given more time, Cable was trending in the right direction he should have had another year. Unless you do something really bad to get sacked after 1 year is really poor, especially when that one year isn't particularly bad. Maybe one of those two would have made a difference, maybe not. I don't think they're evidence in themselves that you don't sack a HC after 3 years if they don't bring the desired results, although less than 3 years I'd agree.

Something must've happened with Bill. I was in middle school back then, so I can't comment or speculate. All I'll say it seems odd that a team would fire a guy that went to the Super Bowl just a year before.

What I'm basically saying is bringing in head coach ever 2 or 3 years without any time for development or implementation of a system simply because he instantly isn't winning is totally the wrong way of doing things.

Every coach gets that luxury, except with the Raiders it seems.
 

ljramsfan

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Something must've happened with Bill. I was in middle school back then, so I can't comment or speculate. All I'll say it seems odd that a team would fire a guy that went to the Super Bowl just a year before.

What I'm basically saying is bringing in head coach ever 2 or 3 years without any time for development or implementation of a system simply because he instantly isn't winning is totally the wrong way of doing things.

Every coach gets that luxury, except with the Raiders it seems.

He threw his team under the bus.


View: http://youtu.be/JL7yAO61xbk
 

Thordaddy

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I think Mike is honest when he said that the Rams basically destroyed his credibility as a HC, and essentially blacklisted him from the other teams.

When I look back, I still can't figure out what Mike did to get himself fired, other than argue with a totally dysfunctional, backstapping, psychopathic front office. I know people said he became paranoid, but so would any other "normal" person put in that situation.

Here is how I remember it Stranger.
Martz's contract was due to be renewed,smart orgs. don't let coaches go into their final year on the chances they have a SB season it costs them too dearly ,so they were negotiating an extension, Martz wanted money commensurate to what Parcells was getting,Shaw was ready to give it to him but wanted performance clause that would let them out, Martz balked and Shaw told him they couldn't afford to keep winning SB's anyway and the expectation would only be 8-8 or better.

Martz leaked that info after they'd locked him out effectively harming the FO cred and damaging the league itself's cred, like there are several franchises that won't put the money into winning and are just milking the cash cow.
Considering your attention to undercurrents I'm kinda surprised you didn't remember these things.
Martz pretty well black balled himself ,but I believe him,and that's one of the reasons I'm so supportive of Kroenke ,he has been willing to spend to acquire excellence to right this ship and IMO knows how deep a hole this team was in top to bottom as the people who wanted to sell anyway were unwilling to maintain respectability if it effected the bottom line.
One more thing ,as far as managing egos goes ,IF Mike Martz's ego is any more problematic than Greg Williams',I miss my guess.

On thread topic, Jon Gruden is being rumored as a possible replacement now that the firing is official.
 

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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/30/mark-davis-fires-the-guy-who-really-wasnt-to-blame/

Mark Davis fires the guy who really wasn’t to blame
Posted by Mike Florio on September 30, 2014

dennis.jpg
Getty Images

The worst-kept, stutter-stepped secret in the NFL came to fruition last night, with Raiders owner Mark Davis reacting to an ugly London loss by dumping his third-year head coach, Dennis Allen.

But how much of the team’s horrific performances over the past two-plus seasons can be pinned on Allen? Was it Allen who threw away $6.5 million guaranteed on Matt Flynn? Was it Allen who wasted another $8 million on Matt Schaub?

Was it Allen who presided over the gradual deterioration of the roster and, in many respects, the entire franchise over the last decade?

If Allen deserves to go, so does G.M. Reggie McKenzie. And if they bear blame for the current mess, so does the late Al Davis, who stubbornly refused to step aside from running the football operation in the latter years of his life.

While the elder Davis earned with decades of excellence the privilege to continue in the captain’s chair for as long as he wanted, the younger Davis needs to realize that the problems run far deeper than a head coach who made the best batch of chicken salad he possibly could, given a list of ingredients that includes wasted draft picks and overpriced free agents whom no one else wanted.

So go ahead, Mark, and pursue Jon Gruden. Hell, try to hire Tom Flores or John Madden. Maybe Art Shell would come back for a third tour of duty. Without major changes to the football operations and a dramatic infusion of talent, it won’t matter.
 

Stranger

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Here is how I remember it Stranger.
Martz's contract was due to be renewed,smart orgs. don't let coaches go into their final year on the chances they have a SB season it costs them too dearly ,so they were negotiating an extension, Martz wanted money commensurate to what Parcells was getting,Shaw was ready to give it to him but wanted performance clause that would let them out, Martz balked and Shaw told him they couldn't afford to keep winning SB's anyway and the expectation would only be 8-8 or better.

Martz leaked that info after they'd locked him out effectively harming the FO cred and damaging the league itself's cred, like there are several franchises that won't put the money into winning and are just milking the cash cow.
Considering your attention to undercurrents I'm kinda surprised you didn't remember these things.

Martz pretty well black balled himself ,but I believe him,and that's one of the reasons I'm so supportive of Kroenke ,he has been willing to spend to acquire excellence to right this ship and IMO knows how deep a hole this team was in top to bottom as the people who wanted to sell anyway were unwilling to maintain respectability if it effected the bottom line.
One more thing ,as far as managing egos goes ,IF Mike Martz's ego is any more problematic than Greg Williams',I miss my guess.

On thread topic, Jon Gruden is being rumored as a possible replacement now that the firing is official.
Somehow I either totally missed that that was a contract re-negotiation year, or had just forgotton it. Yup, all makes sense to me now - thx.
 

Warner4Prez

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I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I was so happy to see Martz leave and just cringed whenever he got another gig.
It's not fair to pin all of the organizations failings on one guy, and I know at that particular point in time this organization had plenty going on behind the scenes, but to me, I watched Martz squander that GSOT team and the talent.
Sure we can go round and round in circles about who was in charge of personnel, but if Martz was as inflexible and demanding as he's portrayed, you'd have to think he had some input.

Sure the next 6 or 7 years were no better, but aside from some rapidly aging hold overs from the SB squads, what did Linehan have to work with?
 

MrMotes

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Sure the next 6 or 7 years were no better, but aside from some rapidly aging hold overs from the SB squads, what did Linehan have to work with?

No better? We were historically bad for the 9 years before he took over the offense in '99 and have been even worse since he was fired in in 2005. The 6 years Martz was OC/HC were the best years we Rams fans have had in decades. I'm inclined to give him a lot of credit for that...
 

thirteen28

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I don't think defenses were as evolved as they are now. Safeties were different. Not every team had a defensive end that was going to be able to sack you if you keep taking seven-step drops. It was a different time, different game. Defenses I think since have kind of caught up to that. So it's one of those things. We gave it a shot. I still respect Mike. He's one of the brightest minds in the game."

While I love what Martz did for the Rams offense, I think there is some truth to what Cutler is saying here. Martz is enamored with what the GSOT did (and not without justification, given its pure awesomeness). But the NFL isn't a static league and teams adjusted to that, and Martz never seemed to counter-adjust during his time with the Rams or thereafter. He seemed to be trying to re-live the golden years.

It's too bad, because he really is a brilliant football mind. Moreover, while he was not a great talent evaluator for most positions, he was excellent at it for QB's and WR's. I don't think anyone could have turned Bulger into the QB he was, and he was the first person to recognize what the Rams had in Warner, long before anyone else knew, even Vermeil.

If he could just learn to take his ego out of the way, play well with others, and have a little more sense of when to take his foot off the gas and take what the defense was giving, he'd still have a career.
 

Warner4Prez

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No better? We were historically bad for the 9 years before he took over the offense in '99 and have been even worse since he was fired in in 2005. The 6 years Martz was OC/HC were the best years we Rams fans have had in decades. I'm inclined to give him a lot of credit for that...
Right, things were great when he inherited a team that Dick V put together. I don't know that Martz did anything to enhance what was already there.

However, I digress from the main topic. Raiders suck.