Someone sell me on Jeff Fisher

[moklerman]

That's kind of my point. They were EXTREMELY lucky. That kind of luck on a QB taken later doesn't happen very often which is why I don't expect it to happen to us. If people are expecting us to find our franchise QB in the draft outside of the top few picks, they'd better break out their luckiest charm and pray to baby Jesus because the odds are very low of it happening. This is why I've been so torn about our wins this year. I want the Rams to win but know that with each one, it becomes harder to find a solution at QB. I'm sure I'll get blasted for that but I that's just how I see it.

True, but there are more options than trading up or waiting 'til the third. I'd look at examples like Pittsburgh and Green Bay or even Oakland(recently). With the first two examples, it was very beneficial for those young QB's to actually go to better teams and not have the pressure and demand of being taken high in the draft or at a high cost to the team in a trade.

If the Rams have a guy fall to them that they really like, then they should draft him. But trading up or taking a QB because they "have" to will be mistakes IMO.

 

[moklerman]

He might have taken over one of the worst teams ever but he also had all the tools to rebuild it with all those high draft picks. After all of that added talent and time, where are they in the win column? The roster might look better on paper and the play might look better on the field but really the point of it all isn't to look a little better on the field.

Didn't he help create that situation? He didn't just inherit a ton of picks, he and Snead have been proactive in making those moves.

As has been stated, no coach/GM hits on 100% of their picks. All in all, this regime is doing pretty well.

 

[LesBaker]

I believe that questioning Fisher is a legitimate point of view.

Yes, he took over an historically bad team.

But he's also had 3 years of autonomy on football matters.
Got to pick any asst coaches he wanted with no limits on salaries he could offer.
Had bonus premium picks from the RG3 trade.
Final say on FA acquisitions.
Final say on draft picks.
Final say on game plan strategy every week.
Has the security of a supportive owner and a 5 year $35 million contract.

These are all things that most HC's would kill for.

He got us to respectability his first season, but we've regressed slightly in the following 2 years. Not the trajectory we all wanted and expected.

Here's his career record in a nutshell. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/FishJe0.htm

Career .526 winning record.
Only 6 winning seasons in 20 years.
Last 5 seasons are losing records.

He's gonna get his teams to respectability, but probably not to the promised land. At least that's what the evidence is telling us.

Last thing. We are losing winnable games, fellas. That's not something that consistently happens with teams that have top notch coaching. I don't know how long we're gonna have to tolerate these disappointments.

Twenty years is enough evidence for me. I'm willing to take a shot at finding the next Pettine, Kelly, Arians, or...

Well my dear 43 I hate doing point by point but I wanted to give you a different viewpoint in a compact fashion because I respect you as a poster so much.

3 years to rebuild might not be enough for what this team was. A normal rebuild maybe, but this one maybe not. Losing your starting QB doesn't help either. I'm not a huge Bradford fan but that has to be factored in.

His coaching selections have been spotty, but not horrible, and the Williams suspension set him back.

He had 3 extra picks over two years, it's not like he had double what everyone else got.

As far as the draft and FA acquisitions I think overall Fisher/Snead have done well. They haven't picked a superstar every time but they have built the roster. Long and Wells were two not so good picks but it happens. As far as the draft they missed on Pead but everyone else they took in the first two rounds is playing pretty well and showing signs of improving. After the second round it's a crap shoot and I think you'll agree with that. Remember that there wasn't a lot of cap space until this off season. Last year and the year before there was a lot less if I recall correctly.

I don't know how much he has his hands in the game planning on the O, but I am sure he is in the mix with the D. In game decisions have been up and down and sometimes I wonder if he delegates too much and lets BS do as he pleases rather then taking control like DV did with Martz.

I agree they have lost games they should have won. Three of them in fact and that's too many so I'm with you on that. The combination of dumb penalties, bad defense and turnovers were to blame for two and who the hell knows what happened against the Vikings. Every year many teams give a couple away, so three times early in the year is too many. But I don't think he was out coached so I have mixed feeling about this. I don't like them giving away games but I don't think it was something he did wrong.

Overall I think he has done a good job with what he has been handed. Next year is going to be the year I make up my mind on Fisher. Another draft and free agency period with lots of cap space and a team that is young and getting more experience should emerge next year.

I like the troika in place right now and I think long term the ball club is going to be competitive more often than not. Assuming they solve the BIG riddle............that being QB of course.

 

[LesBaker]

Tampa Bay's expansion years were pretty rough. From '76 to '86, their first 10 years, they had an 0-14 season and five 2-win seasons. 48-117(.290) during that span.

Yeah that was a fan base that earned their stripes LOL. When a few of us went to Tampa there was a woman sitting right behind us that had been a season ticket holder since the first year. She and BigRamFan went at it with each other in a nice way............it was fun to interact with a fan that was clearly a die hard.

 

[Alan]

Here's another great McKay quote:
After receiving harsh criticism from the media about McKay's coaching skills in the NFL, McKay replies "You guys don't know the difference between a football and a bunch of bananas." In the next interview, members of the media left bananas for McKay. He then replied, "You guys don't know the difference between a football and a Mercedes Benz."

 

[Boffo97]

I've already been on record as saying that I won't shed any tears if Fisher is fired after this season (though I do believe next season will be his "hot seat" year). He took a team that was 7-9 before a horribly injury filled year, and has kept them in the 7-9 neighborhood... and they likely won't even get there this season (and yes, there have been some injuries as a reason for that).

Yes, there is a lot of new young talent on the team as a result of a trade that was only possible because of a huge rule change. But so far, that talent has not translated into wins.

So I can't sell you on Fisher because I'm not sold on him being the answer myself. Next season, he's going to have to win. That's going to be the thing that sells me on him.

 

[moklerman]

Here's another great McKay quote:
After receiving harsh criticism from the media about McKay's coaching skills in the NFL, McKay replies "You guys don't know the difference between a football and a bunch of bananas." In the next interview, members of the media left bananas for McKay. He then replied, "You guys don't know the difference between a football and a Mercedes Benz."

Three or four plane crashes and we're in the playoffs.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Coach, what about your team's execution out there today?
I'm all for it.

 

[Rmfnlt]

I believe that questioning Fisher is a legitimate point of view.

Yes, he took over an historically bad team.

But he's also had 3 years of autonomy on football matters.
Got to pick any asst coaches he wanted with no limits on salaries he could offer.
Had bonus premium picks from the RG3 trade.
Final say on FA acquisitions.
Final say on draft picks.
Final say on game plan strategy every week.
Has the security of a supportive owner and a 5 year $35 million contract.

These are all things that most HC's would kill for.

He got us to respectability his first season, but we've regressed slightly in the following 2 years. Not the trajectory we all wanted and expected.

Here's his career record in a nutshell. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/FishJe0.htm

Career .526 winning record.
Only 6 winning seasons in 20 years.
Last 5 seasons are losing records.

He's gonna get his teams to respectability, but probably not to the promised land. At least that's what the evidence is telling us.

Last thing. We are losing winnable games, fellas. That's not something that consistently happens with teams that have top notch coaching. I don't know how long we're gonna have to tolerate these disappointments.

Twenty years is enough evidence for me. I'm willing to take a shot at finding the next Pettine, Kelly, Arians, or...

One thing is for certain: Fisher will get another shot.

I think the defense will not be the issue. Will it be as stout as it was during that three game stretch? I doubt it, solely for the fact Williams (and his blitzing) can be game planned too easily (Rivers did it Sunday). However, they'll still be a very good defense.

It's that offense I am worried about.

Schottenheimer... and the very large question mark at QB.

We've gone two and a half years with Schottenheimer and not much has changed. Near the bottom of the league in points scored, no matter who the QB was.

I just don't know how they are going to resolve the QB situation and it is soooooo important.

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I see another .500 or worse season next year.

And then? Fisher probably will have earned a pink slip.

 

[Mojo Ram]

I can't sell someone on a coach they want to sell me isn't the answer.

Saved me the typing. R&G doesn't want Fisher here anymore and is trying hard to sell THAT.

My biggest transparent fault with Fisher is the slow starts. I'm not going to itemize every negative thing thats happened in 3 years here and pin Fisher's name to it.

 

[Rams43]

Well my dear 43 I hate doing point by point but I wanted to give you a different viewpoint in a compact fashion because I respect you as a poster so much.

3 years to rebuild might not be enough for what this team was. A normal rebuild maybe, but this one maybe not. Losing your starting QB doesn't help either. I'm not a huge Bradford fan but that has to be factored in.

His coaching selections have been spotty, but not horrible, and the Williams suspension set him back.

He had 3 extra picks over two years, it's not like he had double what everyone else got.

As far as the draft and FA acquisitions I think overall Fisher/Snead have done well. They haven't picked a superstar every time but they have built the roster. Long and Wells were two not so good picks but it happens. As far as the draft they missed on Pead but everyone else they took in the first two rounds is playing pretty well and showing signs of improving. After the second round it's a crap shoot and I think you'll agree with that. Remember that there wasn't a lot of cap space until this off season. Last year and the year before there was a lot less if I recall correctly.

I don't know how much he has his hands in the game planning on the O, but I am sure he is in the mix with the D. In game decisions have been up and down and sometimes I wonder if he delegates too much and lets BS do as he pleases rather then taking control like DV did with Martz.

I agree they have lost games they should have won. Three of them in fact and that's too many so I'm with you on that. The combination of dumb penalties, bad defense and turnovers were to blame for two and who the hell knows what happened against the Vikings. Every year many teams give a couple away, so three times early in the year is too many. But I don't think he was out coached so I have mixed feeling about this. I don't like them giving away games but I don't think it was something he did wrong.

Overall I think he has done a good job with what he has been handed. Next year is going to be the year I make up my mind on Fisher. Another draft and free agency period with lots of cap space and a team that is young and getting more experience should emerge next year.

I like the troika in place right now and I think long term the ball club is going to be competitive more often than not. Assuming they solve the BIG riddle............that being QB of course.

I have the greatest of respect for your postings, too, Les.

And I can see where there is room for 2 reasonable posters to have differing opinions on Fisher. We are both fans of Snead and Demoff, I believe.

This is my Reader Digest version of my Fisher viewpoint...

A career .526 winning HC.
Only 6 winning seasons in 20 years.
His last 5 seasons have all been losing ones.
His O, under his hand picked Schotty, is currently ranked 27th.
He and his Coordinators have been outcoached several times this year. As in the difference between a winning and a losing record. That's unacceptable.
We have lost winnable games even here in his 3rd season.
Still are among the league leaders in team penalties.

Looking at the above 7 items, why should one assume that things will turn around in his 21st season?

Why not give someone else a shot? Gus Malzahn at Auburn, for example? He's got a helluva resume, don't you think?

 

[jrry32]

Mike Martz?

When Fisher was hired most of us knew what we were getting based on his history - a competent coach who would put together a tough defense, a good running game, a chippy team with lots of penalties that would be feared and respected, and get us into the 7-9 to 9-7 range. My hope was that once he did that we would hire another HC who would take us to the next level.

After the previous disastrous seasons that Rams fans experienced pre-Jeff Fisher, this has been an improvement. Now we want more.

I figured someone would point to him.

No.

Martz was a great offensive mind but he wasn't a competent HC. He didn't manage the game well, he used challenges at the worst times, and while Lovie Smith was a great hire, after Smith left, his hires were bad.

Like Buddy Ryan, Martz was a brilliant coordinator but not such a good head coach.

For the record though...

Snead and Fisher waited WAAAAAAAAYYYYY too long to actually address the O-Line. That's their biggest fault and it's a big one. They spent on re-tread O-Lineman who couldn't/can't stay healthy or weren't that good and went in other directions in the draft until Robinson.

You could legit say they failed to adequately protect the biggest investment and most integral player on the team, hell, the player they said drew them to this job. I get their need to address the D early and am glad for some of the picks.....but quite frankly, we could have a far better O-Line, built through the draft, playing better because of cohesiveness (i.e. we drafted them) and we didn't.

That's a big black eye on this regime.

I was talking to a Jaguars fan yesterday and he said something really insightful.

He said that the Jaguars would probably have to re-sign Cecil Shorts because of all their holes at this point in the rebuild even knowing that ultimately, he'd probably be looked upon as an overpaid player. His reasoning was this - The Jaguars have so many holes that they're going to need guys who are more or less overpaid but steady veterans to fill some of the holes while they build up the team around them.

I remarked to him that I think he is dead on in that assessment. The Jaguars this year are probably the least talented team since the 2009 Rams. And thinking about it, I think that's what we did. We paid guys like Long, Wells, Dahl, and even Laurinaitis not because they thought they were elite but because the Rams needed veterans to fill the holes on this team until they reached the point where they had built the team up with talent so that these guys were replaceable. And when you reach the point where these guys are the players you want to upgrade on, that's when you know that your team is starting to arrive.

Personally, I think that's what they did with the OL. They realized that this team had so little overall talent that they needed to address the OL with veterans for the time being while they put the other pieces in place. Now that the pieces are in place, I think you're going to see Snead and co. really go after OL upgrades.

Gotta keep in mind that there is an opportunity cost in every move you make and I can understand why they would do this in this way. I have a feeling they didn't expect Long and Wells to suffer the continuous injuries that they have.

 

[jrry32]

I have the greatest of respect for your postings, too, Les.

And I can see where there is room for 2 reasonable posters to have differing opinions on Fisher. We are both fans of Snead and Demoff, I believe.

This is my Reader Digest version of my Fisher viewpoint...

A career .526 winning HC.
Only 6 winning seasons in 20 years.
His last 5 seasons have all been losing ones.
His O, under his hand picked Schotty, is currently ranked 27th.
He and his Coordinators have been outcoached several times this year. As in the difference between a winning and a losing record. That's unacceptable.
We have lost winnable games even here in his 3rd season.
Still are among the league leaders in team penalties.

Looking at the above 7 items, why should one assume that things will turn around in his 21st season?

Why not give someone else a shot? Gus Malzahn at Auburn, for example? He's got a helluva resume, don't you think?

Because giving someone else a shot can backfire in a huge way and send us backwards right when this team is getting close to turning that proverbial corner.

 

[jrry32]

Need I remind you that Davis threw a game winning TD pass to Cook, the fact that Cook dropped it reinforces my point that it's not just the QB, if Cook makes a really easy catch Davis probably isn't even attempting a pass at the point of his 2nd TD, and Davis walks out of the game with 4 TDs and 1 INT, something Bradford has never done. We win by 3.

4 TDs to 0 Ints

Wouldn't have thrown the pick six to Carter or imploded and thrown the second Int to Claiborne. But that was pretty foreshadowing as it forewarned us about Davis's tendency to implode when in crunch time in the 4th quarter.

And yes, Bradford did have a game like that if you consider the drops. Against the Texans, he threw 3 TDs to 0 Ints and Chris Givens dropped a long bomb that would have went for a TD in that game. It hit him in stride in the hands behind the two safeties.

Bradford also had the Redskins game in 2012 where he threw 3 TDs to 1 Int and ACTUALLY THREW A FOURTH TD TO BRANDON GIBSON but the replacement refs called it incomplete.

 

[Thordaddy]

Saved me the typing. R&G doesn't want Fisher here anymore and is trying hard to sell THAT.

My biggest transparent fault with Fisher is the slow starts. I'm not going to itemize every negative thing thats happened in 3 years here and pin Fisher's name to it.

bbbbbbut YOU SKIPPED THE BEST PART
Fisher had an identical regular season record as the five years of the GSOT during those same years AND played in the conference that won the SB 3 of those 5 years and I think had one more playoff game than we did AND it took the GSOT to deny him a SB win

 

[Rams43]

Because giving someone else a shot can backfire in a huge way and send us backwards right when this team is getting close to turning that proverbial corner.

I hear ya, jrry32.

Either decision has risk.

The new HC might not be an Arians, Pettine, or Kelly. Or a Carroll, Harbaugh, or...

But to me, the risk of staying with Fisher would be the continuation of more consecutive losing seasons. Currently at 5 and counting. Meanwhile, our young talent brought in is marching towards their expensive second contract.

Time is not on our side here. I'd rather snatch the bandage off the wound quickly rather than tug at it slooooowly. Lol.

 

[jrry32]

I hear ya, jrry32.

Either decision has risk.

The new HC might not be an Arians, Pettine, or Kelly. Or a Carroll, Harbaugh, or...

But to me, the risk of staying with Fisher would be the continuation of more consecutive losing seasons. Currently at 5 and counting. Meanwhile, our young talent brought in is marching towards their expensive second contract.

Time is not on our side here. I'd rather snatch the bandage off the wound quickly rather than tug at it slooooowly. Lol.

Okay so give Fisher one more year. Lets see what we can do with a QB. Watching all the games this year, with a competent QB, we're in the thick of things.

Time is on our side, honestly. Our team is young. We have been responsible with the salary cap.

 

[Mojo Ram]

bbbbbbut YOU SKIPPED THE BEST PART
Fisher had an identical regular season record as the five years of the GSOT during those same years AND played in the conference that won the SB 3 of those 5 years and I think had one more playoff game than we did AND it took the GSOT to deny him a SB win

Hey you don't have to sell it to me!
As far as i'm concerned the Rams under Linehan/Spags(when the division was the worst in football btw) had little chance to win from week to week. We all knew it too. Well i did. Spags' years got a boost with a rookie Bradford.

Maybe Fisher is a stepping stone idk...but at least we're putting a legit football team on the field every week now. I expect more, but i also realize that we need a franchise QB.

 

[Rams43]

Okay so give Fisher one more year. Lets see what we can do with a QB. Watching all the games this year, with a competent QB, we're in the thick of things.

Time is on our side, honestly. Our team is young. We have been responsible with the salary cap.

Fair enough, jrry32.

We both know that's what's gonna happen, anyway.

I'm just playing the role of devil's advocate here. Not that I don't believe my position is the stronger one.

But Kroenke has 14 million reasons to stick with Fisher. Lol.

 

[jrry32]

Fair enough, jrry32.

We both know that's what's gonna happen, anyway.

I'm just playing the role of devil's advocate here. Not that I don't believe my position is the stronger one.

But Kroenke has 14 million reasons to stick with Fisher. Lol.

I don't think there is a stronger position. I kind of agree with you. If we could upgrade, we should. But it's such a risk and bringing in yet another new system on offense and defense sounds like a pain in the ass to me.

 

[LesBaker]

I have the greatest of respect for your postings, too, Les.

And I can see where there is room for 2 reasonable posters to have differing opinions on Fisher. We are both fans of Snead and Demoff, I believe.

This is my Reader Digest version of my Fisher viewpoint...

A career .526 winning HC.
Only 6 winning seasons in 20 years.
His last 5 seasons have all been losing ones.
His O, under his hand picked Schotty, is currently ranked 27th.
He and his Coordinators have been outcoached several times this year. As in the difference between a winning and a losing record. That's unacceptable.
We have lost winnable games even here in his 3rd season.
Still are among the league leaders in team penalties.

Looking at the above 7 items, why should one assume that things will turn around in his 21st season?

Why not give someone else a shot? Gus Malzahn at Auburn, for example? He's got a helluva resume, don't you think?

I don't know any of the college guys, I don't follow college ball at all.

Keep in mind Fisher was working for one of the least competent owners and was hamstrung for a few seasons because that guy wanted VYoung on the field because he made the decision to draft him. Also the Titans were in some of the worst cap shape ever for a couple of years. They had to dismantle the team and rebuild it. When he has had talent he's done well and right now he has talent, but no QB. But he had about 6 years with the Titans where he was in a no win situation. It's lazy to throw out his record without looking at the backdrop, because it really matters in this case.

He took over an awful Oilers team and rebuilt it.......and did it when they were moved from HOU to TENN.........and had 3 straight 8-8 years then made the playoffs the next two years then had a down year and made the playoffs the next two years. In that 5 year window he got to the conference title game twice and won it once. This process is a bigger rebuild than that was.

The reason I think that Fisher can rebuild this team and make it a winner is that he has already done that type of thing twice with the Oilers/Titans. Once when he first took over and another time after they gutted the roster because of the cap. He knows what he is doing and as I have said many times this is why Kroenke wanted him and gave him a big contract and freedom to pay assistants really well and is leaving him alone to do his job. He knows he can do this because he's seen him do it.......two times.

So I'm good with another year, I am in the same camp as Boffo. Next year is the year he has to get the job done so to speak. Playoffs? It depends on the division. If SEA and SF don't drop off we could see another 10 win season miss the post season like AZ last year. We may see it this year!

It's always a fun debate with you and I don't mind when you're wrong.