Saints release Jhari Evans-RG

[fearsomefour]

I disagree.
Saffold has more talent left than Goldberg ever had. The Rams have no proven depth at T outside of Saffold.
If you want to cut him to save money given his injury history, I understand that. Don't make the depth out to be something it is not. It is, best case, talented and unproven. But, we don't even know how talented. Williams and Battle? This is the depth you are comfortable going into the season with? You are braver than I.

 

[BonifayRam]

I'm hoping Saffold has a bounce back year. This off season will be the first time in a while he's had a significant amount of time to get stronger. It's impossible to even maintain upper body strength with injured shoulders.

Good discussions here....on this point on Saffold time to get stronger?...I say this ....Saffold had one shoulder reconstruction performed in early 2015 on one shoulder & was able to return about mid TC. The first pre season game back, first series after the 1st surgery Saffold injured & tore up the opposite shoulder wonder why?

Saffold came back to start the 2015 season @ ORG but his play was far below late 2013 play levels. By the fifth game Saffold's shoulder was being held in place by HD tape & harnesses. Saffold was done for the season & then had a second reconstruction performed on the opposite shoulder late 2015 the opposite side to the early 2015 surgery. That's two back to back shoulder surgeries....in the same year. How much upper body work do I think that he has had after all these surgeries....... Would it be fare to say that he is still rehabbing one shoulder ? Would I be wrong in my thinking that Saffold is not ready to build back up all that needed upper body power & muscle mass? I think that if we got up with Saffold & got a good look @ him I would see a much different Saffold from the 330 pounder he was previously. I thinking easily under 300 pounds.

I love Reynolds inside....Wichmann looks good and our starting T's are set. I saw nothing from Brown or Donnal that looked anything but worrisome. Brown was a big disappointment to me this past year. That said, he was a rookie and he has upside certainly. Williams has some potential I agree. My reluctance to let Saffold go relates to the lack of any proven depth at all (excluding Reynolds) along the line.

I sure love these discussions fearsomefour :coffee:! I fully agree with you here on most all of the above with the exception on Jamon Brown. When I watched & re watched Brown performance early in his short rookie season I see two Jamon's. First 4 games I see Jamon starting @ LEFT OG, he is a very good OLG. The second Jamon I see starting the next 5 games @ RIGHT OG, is a unsure, whiffing & missing many assignments! What happen? Jamon who was a 3 yr starter @ OLT in college & who just happens to be left handed plays much better on the LEFT side. Simple as that. Jamon, Garrett & Williams should be in contention to be the starting LEFT side OG in 2016. I would bet that Jamon beats out the other two good prospects.

What depth do we have at T?
Williams last a couple of series....Battle didn't see the field enough (at all?) to show us anything. Reynolds may be ok at RT (I love him for inside depth) but I don't think he offers much at LT. Roger Saffold is our only proven depth at T.

I look at it this way....@ LEFT OT, we have Robinson then Williams then Battles. @ RIGHT OT, I see Havenstein then Donnal then Reynolds...that's three deep on each side....I can not recall in recent past Ram history where we have been so deep with young youthful OT's.
Yes the center position as it stands today is a serious issue. The other four OL posts are far in better shape. Rams 3 signed centers Rhaney-Kush-Folkerts look like pure WWC's to me. Rams need to move in two ways here. Purchase a UFA starting center & draft a future starting center. That's it. I would imagine all would agree on this?

 

[fearsomefour]

I look at it this way....@ LEFT OT, we have Robinson then Williams then Battles. @ RIGHT OT, I see Havenstein then Donnal then Reynolds...that's three deep on each side....I can not recall in recent past Ram history where we have been so deep with young youthful OT's.

All those guys are just bodies at this point. That is akin to saying Toon improved our depth at WR. I am not down on any of those guys, but, they have done nothing to show they can play. I do like Williams in the little I saw during the preseason however. Donnal, not so much.

You may be right about Brown. But, he was hardly setting the world on fire at LG either. I remember him whiffing lots out there too and getting pushed back consistently. Again, not unexpected from a rookie. To me, three OL spots are set. LT, RT and RG with Wichmann. Brown may very well beat out everyone at LG and we can have Reynolds settle in a valuable depth piece at left and right G. That would be ideal. Assuming all these guys are going to be depth guys and good ones is a mistake in my estimation. I hope one of either Williams or Battle gets to the point they are a solid back up LT.

 

[BonifayRam]

I disagree.
Saffold has more talent left than Goldberg ever had. The Rams have no proven depth at T outside of Saffold.
If you want to cut him to save money given his injury history, I understand that. Don't make the depth out to be something it is not. It is, best case, talented and unproven. But, we don't even know how talented. Williams and Battle? This is the depth you are comfortable going into the season with? You are braver than I.

Goldberg might be the single best example of a Mike Martz poor player evaluations....& a player that could be tied directly to the demise of Mike Martz decline as a HC for the Rams.

I would not disagree with you here. IF my job depended on the play that comes from the OLT post this up coming season then I thinking that the best emergency plan for the total collapse of the three contenders @ that post(Robinson/Williams/Battle) then I might think hard on retaining Saffold. If cap $$ is not an issue then I going here...http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cordy-glenn/

In my previous post I painted the picture of what I believe is today a lighter less thicker Saffold (bet his sore worn knees are hurting less). Paying a RED MEDICALLY FLAGGED Saffold a near 6 million to be an emergency reserve OT is just hard :huh: for me to do when I am trying to buy back :eek: 7 to 8 UFA Ram starters & a half dozen RFA's with my salary cap bank account.

But I do think, that after the regular season begins & IF the OLT goes fail mode there soon after (doubtful) then Saffold could save my job. IF there was one post in Saffold's weakened physical state that he could handle well would be @ OLT.

 

[fearsomefour]

Goldberg might be the single best example of a Mike Martz poor player evaluations....& a player that could be tied directly to the demise of Mike Martz decline as a HC for the Rams.

I would not disagree with you here. IF my job depended on the play that comes from the OLT post this up coming season then I thinking that the best emergency plan for the total collapse of the three contenders @ that post(Robinson/Williams/Battle) then I might think hard on retaining Saffold. If cap $$ is not an issue then I going here...http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cordy-glenn/

In my previous post I painted the picture of what I believe is today a lighter less thicker Saffold (bet his sore worn knees are hurting less). Paying a RED MEDICALLY FLAGGED Saffold a near 6 million to be an emergency reserve OT is just hard :huh: for me to do when I am trying to buy back :eek: 7 to 8 UFA Ram starters & a half dozen RFA's with my salary cap bank account.

But I do think, that after the regular season begins & IF the OLT goes fail mode there soon after (doubtful) then Saffold could save my job. IF there was one post in Saffold's weakened physical state that he could handle well would be @ OLT.

Yeah, I get it.
I don't even disagree.
The question is really this....not what his pay is, but, what the savings is if he is cut. Because that is what could be used to retain other guys or bring in someone else. If I could be convinced that a vet FA type without injury history could be brought in for less than the savings of $3M by cutting Saffold Im all over that.
Speaking in round numbers, Longs cap savings of $11M, Cooks savings of $5.9M, Saffold of $3M cap savings and Britts at just over $4M are obvious targets for cuts to me. There are teams like Oakland and SF with tons of cap space that stand to reason to be after our CBs/D FAs. The Rams need to be aggressive in retaining their own guys.
The best case to me is Long redoes his deal in a meaningful (possible) way to free up space, Roger redoes his deal (doubtful) and provides depth, Cook is let go and Britt stays.
I think it is likely Saffold is let go. All I am saying is the Rams have no proven depth at T. Saffold worth (in relation to his cap number) is either very high or nothing depending on his health....and we all know the history there. Value vs cap space is something to consider however.

 

[BonifayRam]

Yeah, I get it.
I don't even disagree.
The question is really this....not what his pay is, but, what the savings is if he is cut. Because that is what could be used to retain other guys or bring in someone else. If I could be convinced that a vet FA type without injury history could be brought in for less than the savings of $3M by cutting Saffold Im all over that.
Speaking in round numbers, Longs cap savings of $11M, Cooks savings of $5.9M, Saffold of $3M cap savings and Britts at just over $4M are obvious targets for cuts to me. There are teams like Oakland and SF with tons of cap space that stand to reason to be after our CBs/D FAs. The Rams need to be aggressive in retaining their own guys.
The best case to me is Long redoes his deal in a meaningful (possible) way to free up space, Roger redoes his deal (doubtful) and provides depth, Cook is let go and Britt stays.
I think it is likely Saffold is let go. All I am saying is the Rams have no proven depth at T. Saffold worth (in relation to his cap number) is either very high or nothing depending on his health....and we all know the history there. Value vs cap space is something to consider however.

Using your words here "Rams have no proven depth at" , I would say that this seems to be the norm with many posts on this post free agency Ram roster.


I would ask this...... Who is proven depth behind.....
#1-NT Brockers?
#2-DT Donald ?
#3-RDE-Quinn
#4-MLB JL?
#5-OLB Ogletree?
#6-OLB Ayers?
#7- FS (Fisher does not have a proven starter)
#8-Fullback
#9-QB (Fisher does not even have a proven starter)
#10-WR-Britt
#11-WR-Austin
#12- OL/Center (Fisher does not have a proven starter)

Looks to me that if a offensive post like OLT or the ORT does not have a proven depth then that's normal with this Fisher team. Not what you would expect going into year five of the Fisher regime...or is it? At least the loss of both UFA CB's (probable) would not be devastating.

 

[RamFan503]

Wisniewski signed a one year contract last season for $2.5 mil, shouldn't cost any more than $4.mil per for an extended contract, and from what I recall, his PFF grade was somewhere in the middle of all Centers, and just ahead of expensive free agent Alex Mack. Barnes was either dead last in PFF grading or right near it. jmo.

Not sure Barnes wasn't affected by the overall experience of the line. I'd rather retain Barnes and give this O-line an actual chance to gel. With all the other moves we have to make to retain players, IMO any FA has to really be an upgrade or he won't likely help the overall team.

If Wiz is that much better, which I don't think he is, then by all means, spend a couple mil more on locking down the position. I do think though that he was looking for a long term deal in the neighborhood of $6 mil per but couldn't get it. One question is why? The other is how far over his value are he and his agent thinking this year?

 

[BonifayRam]

Not sure Barnes wasn't affected by the overall experience of the line. I'd rather retain Barnes and give this O-line an actual chance to gel. With all the other moves we have to make to retain players, IMO any FA has to really be an upgrade or he won't likely help the overall team.

If Wiz is that much better, which I don't think he is, then by all means, spend a couple mil more on locking down the position. I do think though that he was looking for a long term deal in the neighborhood of $6 mil per but couldn't get it. One question is why? The other is how far over his value are he and his agent thinking this year?

Why is Wiz the answer? The most surprising part is the Raiders' & Jags strong willingness to let this starter walk off & Wiz is only 26 yrs old?? I would like to have a decent answer to that question? Am I wrong to think there's something to it?

I am with you here my Pacific Ocean loving friend. Tim Barnes had rookie Jamon Brown, Rodger Saffold, rookie Andrew Donnal, rookie Demetruis Rhaney & Garrett Reynolds total of Five different playing on his left hip. On the flip side Barnes has Saffold, rookie Brown, rookie Rhaney, Reynolds & rookie Wichmann thats Five different OG's playing on his right hip. That's a total of 10 :coach:different OG's starting & playing on each side of him:eek:!

Its it too much to say that 2015 16 game task yolked around his first season as a starter at the enormous cost of 700K salary cap alm:hit was some serious accomplishment in itself? :bow:
How successful would Tim Barnes first starting season been if he had the same two OG's each and every game next to him?

 

[DR RAM]

What depth do we have at T?
Williams last a couple of series....Battle didn't see the field enough (at all?) to show us anything. Reynolds may be ok at RT (I love him for inside depth) but I don't think he offers much at LT. Roger Saffold is our only proven depth at T.

In addition, we have Williams, Donnal, and Battle. Mostly unproven, but young and talented. I don't see any reason to spend more, or draft anyone else at this point. All it would mean is that we'd be quitting on young guys that we drafted, and have started developing.

 

[Riverumbbq]

Why is Wiz the answer? The most surprising part is the Raiders' & Jags strong willingness to let this starter walk off & Wiz is only 26 yrs old?? I would like to have a decent answer to that question? Am I wrong to think there's something to it?

I am with you here my Pacific Ocean loving friend. Tim Barnes had rookie Jamon Brown, Rodger Saffold, rookie Andrew Donnal, rookie Demetruis Rhaney & Garrett Reynolds total of Five different playing on his left hip. On the flip side Barnes has Saffold, rookie Brown, rookie Rhaney, Reynolds & rookie Wichmann thats Five different OG's playing on his right hip. That's a total of 10 :coach:different OG's starting & playing on each side of him:eek:!

Its it too much to say that 2015 16 game task yolked around his first season as a starter at the enormous cost of 700K salary cap alm:hit was some serious accomplishment in itself? :bow:
How successful would Tim Barnes first starting season been if he had the same two OG's each and every game next to him?

I don't believe anyone is suggesting Wisniewski is the long term answer, but when one Center grades out (PFF) at 19'th best (Wiz) and another at 29'th (Barnes), folks look to improve their options. I'm not sure what some of you were seeing in Barnes, but I wasn't impressed. While a good deal older, Detroit's Manny Ramirez registered as the top UFA Center with the 4'th highest grade. I'd look to sign a vet like Ramirez for a season or two while still drafting a Center who can assume the position in a season or two. jmo.

 

[Rams43]

I think that Bonifay has made a very persuasive case regarding our OL in this thread.

I kinda like our OL situation, too. I think our starters are gonna just get better and better while depth might be best in years.

Maybe a 4th round pick for a C that they really like, but otherwise I favor spending picks and FA dollars on other positions. QB, WR and TE are high on my list for our O. DE and maybe MLB for our D.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the Ram brain trust finds a way of keeping both CB's, Barron, McLeod, and Hayes.

Saffold seems very expendable to me, frankly. Love his heart but hate that his body just can't seem to hold up.

OL, at least IMHO, is no longer in our top 6 areas of need. Gotta tip my hat to S&F on that accomplishment.

 

[woofwoofmo]

I don't believe anyone is suggesting Wisniewski is the long term answer, but when one Center grades out (PFF) at 19'th best (Wiz) and another at 29'th (Barnes), folks look to improve their options. I'm not sure what some of you were seeing in Barnes, but I wasn't impressed. While a good deal older, Detroit's Manny Ramirez registered as the top UFA Center with the 4'th highest grade. I'd look to sign a vet like Ramirez for a season or two while still drafting a Center who can assume the position in a season or two. jmo.

PFF grades are at best sketchy when in come to Offensive Line Ratings. As has been mentioned ad nausea in several threads, there were 10 different guard/center combinations this year. Anybody with any knowledge of the offensive line knows you're going to have problems with that much instabililty.

Here's a quote from Bill Belichick about PFF grades:\

Last August, Bill Belichick talked about the dangers of watching film and making conclusions based on it.

"It might even look to us like somebody made a mistake but then we look at it more closely maybe somebody besides him made a mistake and he was trying to compensate. I think we need a little closer analysis a lot of times. Sometimes the play calls or what was called on the line of scrimmage might be something that we’re not aware of. That could happen in any game. You think a player did something that he shouldn’t have done but maybe he got a call, a line call or a call from a linebacker or he thought the quarterback said something so he did what he thought was the right thing or maybe it was the right thing but that call shouldn’t have been made or should have been on the other side. But yeah, I think we need to be careful about what we’re evaluating."

So sometimes even the team itself doesn’t know exactly where things broke down and who did what wrong. Belichick then went on to talk about watching opposing team’s game films and the impossibilities of knowing what happened:

"But believe me, I’ve watched plenty of preseason games this time of year and you’re looking at all the other teams in the league and you try to evaluate players and you’re watching the teams that we’re going to play early in the season and there are plenty of plays where I have no idea what went wrong. Something’s wrong but I don’t…these two guys made a mistake but I don’t know which guy it was or if it was both of them. You just don’t know that. I don’t know how you can know that unless you’re really part of the team and know exactly what was supposed to happen on that play. I know there are a lot of experts out there that have it all figured out but I definitely don’t. This time of year, sometimes it’s hard to figure that out, exactly what they’re trying to do. When somebody makes a mistake, whose mistake is it?"

Bill Belichick doesn’t have it figured out. But Pro Football Focus does? They can provide a grade on every play?

 

[Riverumbbq]

PFF grades are at best sketchy when in come to Offensive Line Ratings. As has been mentioned ad nausea in several threads, there were 10 different guard/center combinations this year. Anybody with any knowledge of the offensive line knows you're going to have problems with that much instabililty.

Here's a quote from Bill Belichick about PFF grades:\

Last August, Bill Belichick talked about the dangers of watching film and making conclusions based on it.

"It might even look to us like somebody made a mistake but then we look at it more closely maybe somebody besides him made a mistake and he was trying to compensate. I think we need a little closer analysis a lot of times. Sometimes the play calls or what was called on the line of scrimmage might be something that we’re not aware of. That could happen in any game. You think a player did something that he shouldn’t have done but maybe he got a call, a line call or a call from a linebacker or he thought the quarterback said something so he did what he thought was the right thing or maybe it was the right thing but that call shouldn’t have been made or should have been on the other side. But yeah, I think we need to be careful about what we’re evaluating."

So sometimes even the team itself doesn’t know exactly where things broke down and who did what wrong. Belichick then went on to talk about watching opposing team’s game films and the impossibilities of knowing what happened:

"But believe me, I’ve watched plenty of preseason games this time of year and you’re looking at all the other teams in the league and you try to evaluate players and you’re watching the teams that we’re going to play early in the season and there are plenty of plays where I have no idea what went wrong. Something’s wrong but I don’t…these two guys made a mistake but I don’t know which guy it was or if it was both of them. You just don’t know that. I don’t know how you can know that unless you’re really part of the team and know exactly what was supposed to happen on that play. I know there are a lot of experts out there that have it all figured out but I definitely don’t. This time of year, sometimes it’s hard to figure that out, exactly what they’re trying to do. When somebody makes a mistake, whose mistake is it?"

Bill Belichick doesn’t have it figured out. But Pro Football Focus does? They can provide a grade on every play?

Like PFF or not, it offers a valuable service. I'm not suggesting it should trump what we can see so easily ourselves, but it can help verify thru statistics what many already believe they know. Barnes was a sieve, the middle of our O-line was penetrated consistently. This isn't all on Barnes, and I can accept that injuries to our Guards took a toll, but we still have to grade each player as if they are on an island, without outside influence. I will use PFF on occasion when it backs what I have seen for myself, … and Barnes struggled. He is a back-up at best who has tasted a starting role. I believe, like Barksdale last season, that Barnes will be allowed to seek his true value in free agency and the Rams will decide if his asking price matches his talent. jmo.

 

[woofwoofmo]

There are no definitive statistics for measuring offensive line performance. All PFF does is offer their speculation on what may or may not have been a good play or a blown assignment. They have no idea what the line call was or who may have blown an assignment leading to another lineman looking like the one at fault. PFF may be good for other positions, but OL is not one where I would trust anything they said. I know for a fact OL players have gotten game balls for their performance in a game when PFF said they had a bad game.

 

[Riverumbbq]

There are no definitive statistics for measuring offensive line performance. All PFF does is offer their speculation on what may or may not have been a good play or a blown assignment. They have no idea what the line call was or who may have blown an assignment leading to another lineman looking like the one at fault. PFF may be good for other positions, but OL is not one where I would trust anything they said. I know for a fact OL players have gotten game balls for their performance in a game when PFF said they had a bad game.

Again, no one is suggesting PFF is the Holy Grail, but they are the best available stat service even if you refuse to accept their innovative service. I won't argue your opinion, … I see what I see and look to see what other fans see, then look to see how the pundits and statisticians see it. Just to make it easy, i'll be fine if Barnes is replaced with something better, simple as that. jmo.

 

[woofwoofmo]

You're right, we'll agree to disagree on this one. And there is certainly a lot of debate about how good of a service PFF is, some love them, some hate them. Again read Belichick's comments about watching game film and grading. If you take into account the revolving door at both guard positions, it being Barnes first year to start, not getting the full benefit of running with the "1's" in training camp everyday with a new OC, I think Barnes did a more than credible job and I for one hope he's back to provide the stabilizing influence this OL needs.

Here's the whole article about in case you've got a few minutes to peruse:

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/can-pro-football-focus-stats-be-blindly-trusted

 

[Riverumbbq]

You're right, we'll agree to disagree on this one. And there is certainly a lot of debate about how good of a service PFF is, some love them, some hate them. Again read Belichick's comments about watching game film and grading. If you take into account the revolving door at both guard positions, it being Barnes first year to start, not getting the full benefit of running with the "1's" in training camp everyday with a new OC, I think Barnes did a more than credible job and I for one hope he's back to provide the stabilizing influence this OL needs.

Here's the whole article about in case you've got a few minutes to peruse:

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/can-pro-football-focus-stats-be-blindly-trusted

Thanks for the article, although I don't keep company with anyone who follows football stats or anything else blindly. PFF is and always has been a secondary method for evaluation, they provide part of the story while the rest of us enjoy the game, drink beer, eat wings and discuss the game with our 'bud's'. They often technically verify what we have already observed, and articulate that with statistical conformation. I've also had WTF questions on some of their information, although for the most part find their service invaluable and agreeable. Any pundit who solely relies on PFF should be looking for other work, as we all have eyes and a mind to decipher whether an OLineman tripped or was manhandled, etc., … there are areas where stats just don't tell the whole story, no question about it. jmo.

 

[DR RAM]

Advanced analytics are a part of every major sport, now.