Rams Snead getting picked apart.

[thirteen28]

I'm still not sure why Snead gets a free pass from some. Some posters want to credit him with all the good defensive picks while blaming Fisher for the bad offensive ones. Three highly picked offensive players have either underwhelmed or flat busted in Robinson, Austin, and Quick. All essentially first round picks. I put blame on both Fisher and Snead because it's most likely a collaboration between the two.

He doesn't get a free pass, but in the end of the day, the buck stops with Fisher. He hired Snead, not the other way around and it's hard to believe that Fisher doesn't have the final say.

Part of the reason too is that of the guys that have been picked, the ones who have succeeded at least somewhere with the Rams have done so with the units that are coached well, while the failures have almost entirely been on offense. When you look at the defensive side of the ball, almost every pick has been developed into at least a competent NFL player, if not better. Hard to call any of them certifiable busts, and we've had guys taken in the later rounds that have played very well for us. EJ played great his rookie year, and while his performance has been uneven this year, some of that is attributable to injury. Josh Forrest was turning into a nice find before he went down in the 6th round.

It's our offensive players that have not panned out, and that's the unit where the coaching from the coordinator (if not HC) on down has been bad and worse. It's not merely a coincidence that this is the side of the ball players haven't developed on. What illustrates this even more is how certain offensive players have done on special teams - another well coached unit. While it's too early to render a verdict on Michael Thomas, we can safely say he's killing it on special teams. Marquez, a UDFA find, doesn't provide much value on offense, but continues to make the team because of his excellent play on special teams. I don't have to say too much about Tavon Austin's play on special teams (although he seems to be having an off year in that area this season, but he's been very dynamic there through most of his career). And heck, look at Isiah Pead - an absolute bust at running back, but at one point he at least provided some value as a special teamer.

Thus, when you look at where the offensive players we have brought in as rookies have actually shown some ability to play well consistently, it's been on special teams - an area of our team which almost everybody agrees is well coached.

Coaching appears to be the differentiator.

Defense - well coached, draft picks have worked out to some degree or another.
Special Teams - well coach, draft picks from both sides of the ball seem to have done well here.
Offense - Coaching has gone from bad to worse to god awful, draft picks aren't panning out.

It's not a mystery. And Snead mostly gets a pass because he's not responsible for how players are coached once the are brought in.

 

[tavian]

He makes excuses right after he says there is no excuse. He coddles these guys, making excuses for them instead of calling it what it is, a good and recent example being Gaines' play being blamed on injury. I hope that's the case, as I want Gaines to return to who he was, but the overall deal here is that so many players don't play up to their ability, whether it's him, or Quinn, or Johnson, etc, and Fish never calls them out. I get that's why they love the guy, but at some point he needs to quit with the touch-feely BS and call a spade a spade with his veterans who are not playing well.

Fisher is like a parent who never disciplines his children.
That's why they like Fisher,but most of these guys are still
young and Like a child do not realize that Fisher is not doing
them any favors by taking it too easy on them.
One of the things that pisses me off the most about this team
is it's lack of discipline.That is one aspect,regardless of talent,moving
distractions or any other excuse you can think of.
that there is NO excuse for.None.That sits squarely on the head coach's
shoulder.

Just want to say that I thoroughly enjoy your posts Merlin.you're
slinging some good logic.

 

[CGI_Ram]

I don't disagree with the Fisher culture thing. Also agree that the team has some talent, but I would question the collection of talent we have currently. It just doesn't seem like a cohesive group of players that compliment each other in any particular way. Almost like an auto draft type of lineup, haha. I think you need to draft players that fit the vision and scheme the teams plans to go forward with. Fisher and Snead don't seem to do much critical thinking in that area. The Rams feel like a collection of players, rather than a TEAM....if that makes any sense.

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I made this comment the other day. Well said @Faceplant .

The lack of identity is very concerning to me. I can't wrap my head around how we are in this spot.

Grr.

 

[Yamahopper]

Maybe Sneed is as tired of Fisherball as the fans are.

 

[MountainRam]

Bradford isn't a bad QB. He's a talented QB who's been on many bad teams. He didn't get Chip fired. Chip got Chip fired.

Yes the major failure of the Fisher/Snead regime was the inability to build an offensive line. They did a heck of a job building the defensive line. They developed Quinn, drafted Brockers and Donald. On offense they didn't draft a lineman in the first three rounds until 2014, then in 2015 they went all in on one position. It hasn't paid dividends as they'd like because they haven't seemed to hit on the guys they picked. Cordy Glenn over Quick in 2012, not trading up for Austin in 2013 allowing them to get Warford in the second. Jake Matthews over Greg Robinson. Now that's all hindsight on my part, but I believe if they'd invested in the offensive line earlier with their premium picks they'd be much better off.

Bradford is a tease. Never improved in NFL after getting drafted. Glad he is no longer a Ram.

 

[StealYoGurley]

I like Snead way more than Fisher, he is an aggressive GM with solid philosophies and Fisher certainly holds him back in some ways since he has more power than Snead. Snead's goal all along has been to get players unique athletic ability pro bowl upside early in the draft supplemented by players who fill important roles. Failure to properly develop those players so they reach their potential falls on Fisher. With that said I am not opposed to cleaning house and getting some fresh ideas to put us over the top.

IMO Sneads biggest failure where he had the most influence was Brian Quick. Quick has everything you want in WR, but didn't show anything like that until this year and his catastrophic shoulder injury year. Quick actually pans out or doesn't get hurt and we are looking at Snead alot differently, but he didn't and that could cost him. I could see Quick tearing it up on another team.

The other huge offensive failure is the OL and I blame that more on Fisher and Boudreau. Fisher wanted big offensive lineman who are becoming increasingly out of style with smaller fast players dominating and Snead got them for him. Jake Long, Greg Robinson Andrew Donnal, Rob Havenstein, Jamon Brown, Cody Wichman, Rok Freaking Watkins. All big guys and outside of Robinson all below average athletes with less strength than their size indicates.

 

[FRO]

He doesn't get a free pass, but in the end of the day, the buck stops with Fisher. He hired Snead, not the other way around and it's hard to believe that Fisher doesn't have the final say.

Part of the reason too is that of the guys that have been picked, the ones who have succeeded at least somewhere with the Rams have done so with the units that are coached well, while the failures have almost entirely been on offense. When you look at the defensive side of the ball, almost every pick has been developed into at least a competent NFL player, if not better. Hard to call any of them certifiable busts, and we've had guys taken in the later rounds that have played very well for us. EJ played great his rookie year, and while his performance has been uneven this year, some of that is attributable to injury. Josh Forrest was turning into a nice find before he went down in the 6th round.

It's our offensive players that have not panned out, and that's the unit where the coaching from the coordinator (if not HC) on down has been bad and worse. It's not merely a coincidence that this is the side of the ball players haven't developed on. What illustrates this even more is how certain offensive players have done on special teams - another well coached unit. While it's too early to render a verdict on Michael Thomas, we can safely say he's killing it on special teams. Marquez, a UDFA find, doesn't provide much value on offense, but continues to make the team because of his excellent play on special teams. I don't have to say too much about Tavon Austin's play on special teams (although he seems to be having an off year in that area this season, but he's been very dynamic there through most of his career). And heck, look at Isiah Pead - an absolute bust at running back, but at one point he at least provided some value as a special teamer.

Thus, when you look at where the offensive players we have brought in as rookies have actually shown some ability to play well consistently, it's been on special teams - an area of our team which almost everybody agrees is well coached.

Coaching appears to be the differentiator.

Defense - well coached, draft picks have worked out to some degree or another.
Special Teams - well coach, draft picks from both sides of the ball seem to have done well here.
Offense - Coaching has gone from bad to worse to god awful, draft picks aren't panning out.

It's not a mystery. And Snead mostly gets a pass because he's not responsible for how players are coached once the are brought in.

Playing devils advocate, maybe the coaches on offense are really good, but they have been given crap talent to work with. I don't see offensive talent on this club. The Rams have a great defensive line, a great punter. I believe they have something in Goff and Gurley and a few playmakers on defense. There are some major holes on this team talent wise. I'll also agree that the coaching hasn't been great.

 

[thirteen28]

Playing devils advocate, maybe the coaches on offense are really good, but they have been given crap talent to work with. I don't see offensive talent on this club. The Rams have a great defensive line, a great punter. I believe they have something in Goff and Gurley and a few playmakers on defense. There are some major holes on this team talent wise. I'll also agree that the coaching hasn't been great.

Yeah, I just can't see our coaches on offense being really good, irrespective of the talent. If Schotty was really good but was given lousy talent to work with, he would have probably showed up somewhere else in the NFL by now. Ditto Cignetti. Not sure either of them is in the league in any capacity at the present. Other teams know who is good and who isn't, and they recognize when they don't have the talent to work with. Take Bobby April for example, was a very good special teams coach everywhere except with the Rams, because Martz was very stingy with the players he would let play on special teams. So he gets fired from the Rams, hired by Buffalo, and his first year in Buffalo? Special teams coordinator of the year. Yet there is no demand for Schotty or Cigs at the moment, and I seriously doubt there will be for Boras once his Rams tenure is over with.

If the offensive coaching was good, I think you would have seen somebody break through on offense by this point. Instead Gurley has gone backwards, Austin's progress as a receiver has been very slow, ditto Quick, and so on. Don't get me wrong, I do think we could use talent upgrades on offense, but I don't think the talent that's there is awful or non-existent, as it was in Spags-era. I think a good coordinator could get more out of these guys than any coordinator the Rams have had under Fisher.

 

[FRO]

Yeah, I just can't see our coaches on offense being really good, irrespective of the talent. If Schotty was really good but was given lousy talent to work with, he would have probably showed up somewhere else in the NFL by now. Ditto Cignetti. Not sure either of them is in the league in any capacity at the present. Other teams know who is good and who isn't, and they recognize when they don't have the talent to work with. Take Bobby April for example, was a very good special teams coach everywhere except with the Rams, because Martz was very stingy with the players he would let play on special teams. So he gets fired from the Rams, hired by Buffalo, and his first year in Buffalo? Special teams coordinator of the year. Yet there is no demand for Schotty or Cigs at the moment, and I seriously doubt there will be for Boras once his Rams tenure is over with.

If the offensive coaching was good, I think you would have seen somebody break through on offense by this point. Instead Gurley has gone backwards, Austin's progress as a receiver has been very slow, ditto Quick, and so on. Don't get me wrong, I do think we could use talent upgrades on offense, but I don't think the talent that's there is awful or non-existent, as it was in Spags-era. I think a good coordinator could get more out of these guys than any coordinator the Rams have had under Fisher.

I agree the coaches have sucked, but by the same token what players have left here and all the sudden have gotten better. I think the players and the coaches both suck.

 

[Prime Time]

Exactly. Coaching is bad, but the roster is talent deficient. Horrible offensive line. Poor receivers. Shaky secondary. Lack of defensive depth. It's not 2009 Rams bad, but it's bad.

I believe both Fisher and Snead have failed.

I agree the coaches have sucked, but by the same token what players have left here and all the sudden have gotten better. I think the players and the coaches both suck.

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments. The purpose of 'constructive criticism is to improve the outcome.

This is the contention we're having with the "realists" here. Offer something to improve the situation instead of complaining about the way things are. Yet, we the mods, are accused of stifling conversation which is actually nothing more than venting. What we are trying to do is encourage constructive criticism so we can all learn something.

 

[Merlin]

I like Snead way more than Fisher, he is an aggressive GM with solid philosophies and Fisher certainly holds him back in some ways since he has more power than Snead. Snead's goal all along has been to get players unique athletic ability pro bowl upside early in the draft supplemented by players who fill important roles. Failure to properly develop those players so they reach their potential falls on Fisher. With that said I am not opposed to cleaning house and getting some fresh ideas to put us over the top.

I see it similarly with Snead/Fish. And I always say that the most important move a GM makes is who he hires as his head coach. Why? Because every single pick he makes will be greatly impacted to a great extent, good or bad (and btw I am aware Fish chose Snead in this case). With Fish at the helm Snead is basically gonna have to hit a home run with every offensive player by getting a guy who will be good in spite of coaching, and that's a tall order.

So yeah, if they bring in a new head coach, which I pray happens, I'm good with them keeping Les around.

 

[Merlin]

Take Bobby April for example, was a very good special teams coach everywhere except with the Rams, because Martz was very stingy with the players he would let play on special teams. So he gets fired from the Rams, hired by Buffalo, and his first year in Buffalo? Special teams coordinator of the year. Yet there is no demand for Schotty or Cigs at the moment, and I seriously doubt there will be for Boras once his Rams tenure is over with.

Agreed. And a great example the other day was the announcer observing the Rams' tendencies right there on TV, that they run out of the under-center formation but never out of shotgun. How does that get past their Quality Control coaches?

Facts are facts. The Rams are a dumb, dumb, dumb offensive team. Schematically speaking and in the case of several players who continue to let them down.

 

[Leuzer]

Coaching is to blame, not Snead. Here's my example why:

The Rams draft Todd Gurley II and in his rookie season racks up 1,106 yards on the ground and 10 TDs in 12 games. He earns Pro Bowl honors and is named the Offensive Rookie of the Year. Clearly, Gurley has talent. In year two, teams are now game planning for Gurley and he hasn't even come close to matching his success from last year. Is it because he suddenly sucks and has no talent? No. It's because Jeff doesn't know how to coach his players and Boras doesn't know how to use his weapons.

 

[Loyal]

I have been a fan so long, but this year is getting to me more than many others. I liked the Goff pick and I am glad to have seen him play, but after 4 + years of Fisher, our team is a dumpster fire. Hell, even our vaunted defense either sucks or is giving up. This is the first time since the game I have even come here, and i have not read any Rams news..cuz it doesn't really matter. Nothing gets fixed, and it's the same old coach-speak about fixing it and "getting better". I come here for one bit of news that we can't speak of right now.....and that's not firing Snead...lol

 

[FRO]

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, usually involving both positive and negative comments. The purpose of 'constructive criticism is to improve the outcome.

This is the contention we're having with the "realists" here. Offer something to improve the situation instead of complaining about the way things are. Yet, we the mods, are accused of stifling conversation which is actually nothing more than venting. What we are trying to do is encourage constructive criticism so we can all learn something.

Guess I'll sit this one out then.

 

[Riverumbbq]

Okay, I get that teams are loading the box begging us to throw. So the question is how do you fix this? Coaches should be able to create a game plan anticipating this, and the players need to execute better. Seems easy to some extent, but for whatever reason we can't seem to solve this riddle.

While I don't consider Fisher much of a game day coach, or as a coach who trains his players to get the most out of them, it's probably easier for me to shame him for not acquiring the needed talent with all those resources available to him that went squandered. All those draft picks from the RG3 trade along with a few poor free agent choices, trading up for Austin, etc. Fisher does deserve credit for hiring Williams, Fassel & Waufle, ... and Donald, Gurley & Goff are good players to build a team around, but still ... 5 years ? The riddle you speak of is a three pronged dagger pointing at a lack of player talent, lack of team maturity, and poor offensive coaching. I look up and down our roster and see little in the way of solid depth, an offensive line in complete shambles, a teetering defense, I believe half of our roster would struggle finding another team if released, ... after 5 years of Fisherball we are still the youngest team in the NFL, translate that directly to penalties and mistakes in execution, ... and OL, WR, & TE coaches/assistants who don't appear qualified to either teach or expect a premium performance. Other than 3 solid interior D-Linemen, our edge rushers & depth are faltering, our two man LB'er corps lacks depth & our DB play is dubious. We've won 4 games out of 12 and we may be lucky to get one more. After Goff, Gurley, Havenstein & maybe Britt & Austin, our offense is running near empty, and Goff is a question of hope rather than success. Our D is in a little better shape, but there are still holes aplenty and two of the better ones could be lost to free agency following this season. This is what we have to show for 5 years of Fisher. I happen to like Snead, but how much responsibility he carries in this mess is unknown to me at present. Without a 1'st round draft pick next year, it's hard to predict how successful we can be finding an impact player that can fill a void right away, so I have to wonder how fast Fisher might change our momentum ? Free Agency may be a bigger topic than the draft for 2017, at least for the Rams, ... here's hoping for the best. opcorn: :cheers:

 

[Faceplant]

While I don't consider Fisher much of a game day coach, or as a coach who trains his players to get the most out of them, it's probably easier for me to shame him for not acquiring the needed talent with all those resources available to him that went squandered. All those draft picks from the RG3 trade along with a few poor free agent choices, trading up for Austin, etc.

I think this is what bothers me the most. As I alluded to earlier, it seems like Snisher has gone into every draft looking for shiny toys instead of filling actual needs and looking to the future. When they DO attempt to fill a need, they tend to go with "upside" over the more "safe" pick. I could be wrong of course, but that is how I see it. It think of it like letting your 6 year old do the shopping. You will have a house full of tasty, sugary stuff that will give you a high every now and then, but always bring you crashing down eventually, haha.

I really think this FO outsmarts themselves too often. I would prefer they take good, solid players that can start and play well sooner rather than later. You cannot build a team like before FA. You have a window to get these players up to speed and on the same page (not to mention the FIELD) before they are at the end of their rookie deals. It is and has been the reality of the NFL for 20+ years now.

 

[So Ram]

I Listened to some of the show last night, hoping to post Les' comments, but he really didn't have much to say. They briefly talked about the game on Sunday, which was mostly about Brady. Talked a bit about Goff's progression, and I turned it off once they went into his history with Atlanta. Because I did not listen to the whole thing, I'm not sure if there was any discussion about Fisher's extension. From what I heard, he seemed very nervous with his responses.

Edit: One other item I forgot to mention. They did discuss our running game woes. Les attributes it to defenses making a concerted effort to stop Gurley this year after seeing what he did last year. He also said Gurley has shown some impatience this year too because he's not seeing the same thing as last year.

Okay, I get that teams are loading the box begging us to throw. So the question is how do you fix this? Coaches should be able to create a game plan anticipating this, and the players need to execute better. Seems easy to some extent, but for whatever reason we can't seem to solve this riddle.

It didn't stop Blount 4th & short to take it to the House from 40 yards out !!!

 

[So Ram]

He doesn't get a free pass, but in the end of the day, the buck stops with Fisher. He hired Snead, not the other way around and it's hard to believe that Fisher doesn't have the final say.

Part of the reason too is that of the guys that have been picked, the ones who have succeeded at least somewhere with the Rams have done so with the units that are coached well, while the failures have almost entirely been on offense. When you look at the defensive side of the ball, almost every pick has been developed into at least a competent NFL player, if not better. Hard to call any of them certifiable busts, and we've had guys taken in the later rounds that have played very well for us. EJ played great his rookie year, and while his performance has been uneven this year, some of that is attributable to injury. Josh Forrest was turning into a nice find before he went down in the 6th round.

It's our offensive players that have not panned out, and that's the unit where the coaching from the coordinator (if not HC) on down has been bad and worse. It's not merely a coincidence that this is the side of the ball players haven't developed on. What illustrates this even more is how certain offensive players have done on special teams - another well coached unit. While it's too early to render a verdict on Michael Thomas, we can safely say he's killing it on special teams. Marquez, a UDFA find, doesn't provide much value on offense, but continues to make the team because of his excellent play on special teams. I don't have to say too much about Tavon Austin's play on special teams (although he seems to be having an off year in that area this season, but he's been very dynamic there through most of his career). And heck, look at Isiah Pead - an absolute bust at running back, but at one point he at least provided some value as a special teamer.

Thus, when you look at where the offensive players we have brought in as rookies have actually shown some ability to play well consistently, it's been on special teams - an area of our team which almost everybody agrees is well coached.

Coaching appears to be the differentiator.

Defense - well coached, draft picks have worked out to some degree or another.
Special Teams - well coach, draft picks from both sides of the ball seem to have done well here.
Offense - Coaching has gone from bad to worse to god awful, draft picks aren't panning out.

It's not a mystery. And Snead mostly gets a pass because he's not responsible for how players are coached once the are brought in.

---- I've said it for 3 years now !!!!

As long as Chase Reynolds is still a RAM they will be a losing team !! You have to upgrade your talent !! He is killing a roster spot & developing players.

I personally think it is a bad mind set from the franchise.