Rams future QB situation?

[jrry32]

I'm hoping for Kevin White, Josue Matias, and Gunnar Kiel myself.

I haven't keyed in on him yet so I won't pass this off as an educated opinion but it has seemed like FSU has had a lot of issues with pressure coming from the LG spot this year...is Matias still playing LG?

I want Winston, A.J. Cann, and Rashad Greene.(I'm assuming guys like DeVante Parker, Duke Williams, and DGB don't fall to the 3rd round)

Honestly? I hate Little for what he did. I hate Vick for what he did. But their crimes pale in comparison to rape, which, in my honest opinion, is the worst kind of evil that you can inflict upon a human being. Yes, even worse than murder. As horrible as killing someone is, they don't feel any more pain when they're dead. With rape, it's the exact opposite; the victim literally suffers every day for the rest of their lives.

I don't want a rapist on the team. I don't even want to take a chance on someone who was accused of rape. And for said person to be a quarterback? The face of the franchise? No.

That seems unfair to me. I can understand not wanting a guy you think raped a girl...but just being accused? That's way overkill.

I also have to disagree that rape is worse than murder. You don't feel any more pain because you're dead. It's over. Your life is done. That's a far worse outcome than what happens with rape.

 

[LesBaker]

I want Davis to make the QB discussion superfluous.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Whew! Tough subject...Lets dive in, very slowly, like when the bath water is way, too hot..

And you can find franchise QBs in other places than the top of the 1st, where the fallout from a bust is much greater. To me, Winston=Jeff George. There's more to being a franchise QB than arm talent, as Brees, Smith and many others have proven over the years. And if you can't run the ball or keep them upright to pass it won't matter. We just got a 50 million dollar lesson in this not to long ago.

I see the arm talent comparison, I hardly even remember George in college, but I doubt he's ever won anything like Winston...I think George had a few good years though, couple different coaches...never know.

Ben was suspended, and paid the woman so well she cheerfully dropped everything and went away.

I just wondered, and ask sarcastically, does this in any way make it right? I mean, this is wrong on so many levels...

Now, she supposedly tested negative for "drugs", but most tox screens don't freakin test for Rohypnol and their derivatives.

Now, I really want to respond to your comment, and include my overall view...If an accuser came in with the accounts as described in the articles surrounding a sexual assault, wouldn't the crime lab specifically look for specific drugs that could mimic the behaviors described in such detail like Rohypnol? Doesn't that make more sense?
In this day an age, I feel if this guy were guilty, they would have rung him up, immediately. It wouldn't matter how good FSU was/is. Not that he's innocent, but the story would have been too large to ignore. Is he innocent/guilty, who knows? Only Jameis & the accuser. But it's a shame that he has been convicted in many minds in here. Which is more or less, what an average juror is supposed to be, a peer. Until all the facts are heard...
Would I want him QBing the Rams, hell yes...If he was a rapist, hell no...Stealing crab legs, seriously? I've heard so many starving student stories & how guys eat...the usual being the eat & run outta restaurants...bad guys, hell naw...Lawyers, Doctors, and some damn fine parents today...Just were hungry and dumb...
Other than the assault, I would see no reason to not draft this guy if he checks out in a thorough investigation....I gotta agree with @jrry32 we need to let all the facts play out. Could anyone imagine how terrible this could be if the allegations were untrue? How could any police station survive if these charges were true, and they didn't even file a case? It doesn't make sense...

 

[blue4]

Whew! Tough subject...Lets dive in, very slowly, like when the bath water is way, too hot..

I see the arm talent comparison, I hardly even remember George in college, but I doubt he's ever won anything like Winston...I think George had a few good years though, couple different coaches...never know.

I just wondered, and ask sarcastically, does this in any way make it right? I mean, this is wrong on so many levels...


Now, I really want to respond to your comment, and include my overall view...If an accuser came in with the accounts as described in the articles surrounding a sexual assault, wouldn't the crime lab specifically look for specific drugs that could mimic the behaviors described in such detail like Rohypnol? Doesn't that make more sense?
In this day an age, I feel if this guy were guilty, they would have rung him up, immediately. It wouldn't matter how good FSU was/is. Not that he's innocent, but the story would have been too large to ignore. Is he innocent/guilty, who knows? Only Jameis & the accuser. But it's a shame that he has been convicted in many minds in here. Which is more or less, what an average juror is supposed to be, a peer. Until all the facts are heard...
Would I want him QBing the Rams, hell yes...If he was a rapist, hell no...Stealing crab legs, seriously? I've heard so many starving student stories & how guys eat...the usual being the eat & run outta restaurants...bad guys, hell naw...Lawyers, Doctors, and some damn fine parents today...Just were hungry and dumb...
Other than the assault, I would see no reason to not draft this guy if he checks out in a thorough investigation....I gotta agree with @jrry32 we need to let all the facts play out. Could anyone imagine how terrible this could be if the allegations were untrue? How could any police station survive if these charges were true, and they didn't even file a case? It doesn't make sense...

Of course I didn't mean that what Ben did was right. I don't know how someone could come to that conclusion reading the sum of my posts here. What was meant was that Ben's problems came after being drafted and that he had to pay for his behavior.

As to the investigation, what are you going to find out now, years later? There's not going to be any new info really but a rehash of what went before.

As for the police not doing what they're supposed to, covering sports teams? That's kind of old hat by now.

 

[Memento]

I haven't keyed in on him yet so I won't pass this off as an educated opinion but it has seemed like FSU has had a lot of issues with pressure coming from the LG spot this year...is Matias still playing LG?

I want Winston, A.J. Cann, and Rashad Greene.(I'm assuming guys like DeVante Parker, Duke Williams, and DGB don't fall to the 3rd round)

That seems unfair to me. I can understand not wanting a guy you think raped a girl...but just being accused? That's way overkill.

I also have to disagree that rape is worse than murder. You don't feel any more pain because you're dead. It's over. Your life is done. That's a far worse outcome than what happens with rape.

Matias is doing pretty well at left guard; CBSSports rates him as the second-best in this class and a guaranteed second-round pick at the moment. All in all, I like him because he's an athletic mauler in the same mold as Warford and Iupati. Also, I don't see any way that Rashad Greene goes later than the second round. He's an absolute stud at receiver, more polished and a better player than Benjamin was - and you know how much I banged the drum for Benjamin.

That's how much I am against rapists. Rape is one of the most serious crimes out there. Murder is another. I wouldn't want any player accused of either one of them representing my team, let alone at quarterback.

I have to disagree on that. It may be over when you're dead. In my honest opinion, it's better than living through a psychological, physical, and emotional hell, thinking yourself worthless and being shamed into silence, being triggered by certain things that send you into panic attacks and - even worse - flashbacks of every detail of what happened, and - if the rapist is still out there - living in terror. That's not even mentioning the high suicide rates, the fact that some victims cope by unhealthy means, and possible unwanted pregnancies for women. That is a hell that nobody except the person that has experienced it can ever contemplate, and it is a hell I personally would not want to live in.

 

[jrry32]

Matias is doing pretty well at left guard; CBSSports rates him as the second-best in this class and a guaranteed second-round pick at the moment. All in all, I like him because he's an athletic mauler in the same mold as Warford and Iupati. Also, I don't see any way that Rashad Greene goes later than the second round. He's an absolute stud at receiver, more polished and a better player than Benjamin was - and you know how much I banged the drum for Benjamin.

I don't tend to trust the scouting services. It has seemed to me this year watching FSU that their OL has been inconsistent and I've seen a lot of issues from the left side(Erving and Matias). Which is why I wasn't sure if Matias was still there.

A.J. Cann is my pick at OG. That guy is amazing.

I'll tell you why it's POSSIBLE that Greene falls to Round 3: Kevin White, DeVante Parker, DGB, Amari Cooper, Duke Williams, Ty Montgomery, Devin Funchess, Jaelen Strong, Sammie Coates, and Vince Mayle(likely doesn't go before Greene but possible due to size and athleticism). The WR class has so much talent at the top assuming the expected players declare. Greene is 5'11"/6'0" 180 pounds. That's going to hurt him in the minds of NFL evaluators.

I have to disagree on that. It may be over when you're dead. In my honest opinion, it's better than living through a psychological, physical, and emotional hell, thinking yourself worthless and being shamed into silence, being triggered by certain things that send you into panic attacks and - even worse - flashbacks of every detail of what happened, and - if the rapist is still out there - living in terror. That's not even mentioning the high suicide rates, the fact that some victims cope by unhealthy means, and possible unwanted pregnancies for women. That is a hell that nobody except the person that has experienced it can ever contemplate, and it is a hell I personally would not want to live in.

I'd rather be alive than dead. Even with the mental challenges.

 

[Mackeyser]

Whew! Tough subject...Lets dive in, very slowly, like when the bath water is way, too hot..

I see the arm talent comparison, I hardly even remember George in college, but I doubt he's ever won anything like Winston...I think George had a few good years though, couple different coaches...never know.

I just wondered, and ask sarcastically, does this in any way make it right? I mean, this is wrong on so many levels...


Now, I really want to respond to your comment, and include my overall view...If an accuser came in with the accounts as described in the articles surrounding a sexual assault, wouldn't the crime lab specifically look for specific drugs that could mimic the behaviors described in such detail like Rohypnol? Doesn't that make more sense?
In this day an age, I feel if this guy were guilty, they would have rung him up, immediately. It wouldn't matter how good FSU was/is. Not that he's innocent, but the story would have been too large to ignore. Is he innocent/guilty, who knows? Only Jameis & the accuser. But it's a shame that he has been convicted in many minds in here. Which is more or less, what an average juror is supposed to be, a peer. Until all the facts are heard...
Would I want him QBing the Rams, hell yes...If he was a rapist, hell no...Stealing crab legs, seriously? I've heard so many starving student stories & how guys eat...the usual being the eat & run outta restaurants...bad guys, hell naw...Lawyers, Doctors, and some damn fine parents today...Just were hungry and dumb...
Other than the assault, I would see no reason to not draft this guy if he checks out in a thorough investigation....I gotta agree with @jrry32 we need to let all the facts play out. Could anyone imagine how terrible this could be if the allegations were untrue? How could any police station survive if these charges were true, and they didn't even file a case? It doesn't make sense...

I would agree with you that solely based on his football acumen that he looks like a transcendent talent. There's really nothing to debate about his on-field bona fides. I have yet to hear anyone who doesn't want him argue that there's a better option on the field (like Mariota or Hundley). All of the reasons stem from his off the field behaviors. Plural.

This quote is per the Pat Walker Health Center at the University of Arkansas from a Rohypnol fact sheet they put out.

Is it detectable and how long does it stay in your system?
YES. A urine test can detect the presence of Rohypnol up to 60 hours after ingestion, but most experts say that 24 hours maximum can yield better results. This test must be ordered by a health professional because it is not part of a normal “tox screen.” Rohypnol can be more difficult to detect than similar drugs because it is in low concentrations and is cleared quickly by the body.

The point I have been trying to make is that this flawed investigation didn't exonerate Jameis Winston, it allowed his guilt to be covered up. Saying "she tested negative for drugs" doesn't mean anything UNLESS... they specifically ordered a test for Rohypnol. Nowhere in anything is there documentation that they police ordered the EXTRA test for Rohypnol even though her demeanor and her testimony were entirely consistent with Rohypnol poisoning.

However, what is also consistent is the police behaving in a manner of covering for FSU athletes. You ask, how could any police station survive if these charges were true? Well, Tallahassee PD is NOT surviving!!!! The entire department is under Grand Jury investigation for such gross malfeasance that the department may be disbanded, or may be put temporarily under the jurisdiction of another law enforcement entity until reforms are put in place including outside monitors to ensure that TPD is in compliance. So, the reason this is happening is expressly because TPD cannot do its job. Not even basically. If you read the account of the investigation, you will really get a solid grasp of exactly how badly TPD F'd up this investigation.

I mean, the NYT did an exemplary job. The cop CALLED Jameis Winston. What cop calls a suspect on the damned phone? I've never heard of that ever happening in criminal matters...ever.

And here's the crux. Folks stood behind Vick...then when he was guilty, that was a lot to take in. The guy did some really disgusting stuff. What do they say, then? "Well, I don't care that he slaughtered dogs for his amusement, because...Scoreboard." Now, this investigation has been so tainted by incompetence, delay, and obstruction by the very police that were supposed to be investigating this crime that I don't think Winston will ever be proven guilty for THIS crime, but the recidivism rate for rapists is just too high. If Winston did this and as the DOJ stats confirm, less than 2% of rape accusations are false, it's really likely he did it..., then he'll do it again.

I don't mind disagreeing with folks. I don't. I even get belligerence from time to time. But enough is enough. Every post can't be a post about Winston, can it?

Ya know... it's getting to the point that part of me wants the Rams to win just to be spiteful so we have no shot at Winston. That's unhealthy and wrong and I don't like that. I'm here for the cordial and convivial conversation. But I really care for my Rams and I hate the idea that we'd have a serial rapist at our helm...

 

[jrry32]

The point I have been trying to make is that this flawed investigation didn't exonerate Jameis Winston, it allowed his guilt to be covered up. Saying "she tested negative for drugs" doesn't mean anything UNLESS... they specifically ordered a test for Rohypnol. Nowhere in anything is there documentation that they police ordered the EXTRA test for Rohypnol even though her demeanor and her testimony were entirely consistent with Rohypnol poisoning.

Nowhere in the documentation does it say anything about what tests were conducted, period. She went to the hospital, had a rape kit done, etc. If the story is consistent with a roofie, why would the medical professional not order those tests? You're assuming facts. That's exactly the point I'm making. You can't assume facts. You can't fill in the blanks with theories and opinions to come to your desired conclusion. And that's exactly why I think it's a mistake to come to a concrete conclusion on this allegation. Here are a few facts: they took her to the emergency room, they had her medically examined and a rape kit done, and they had urine AND blood samples taken to be tested. I do not know what tests they conducted but the blood test came back negative for drugs. This was all done within 2 hours of the rape being reported.(the emergency room aspect...not the testing, obviously)

We don't have all the facts. We don't know these things. Making guesses about facts to make conclusions about guilt just seems completely unfair to me.

Here's something interesting:

“Monique said she and [the accuser] continued to drink a little more but never got to a level where she felt they were intoxicated. She said [the accuser] did not seem drunk and “we all seemed fine.” At one point, [the accuser] showed Monique her phone and there was a text on it that said “meet me out front”. Monique knew the number was not programmed in [the accuser's] phone because the number appeared in the display bar instead of a name that would be saved with it. [The accuser] looked at Monique and asked “should I go?” Monique replied, “you can go” and “within a few seconds” [the accuser] was gone…

“…Monique described [the accuser] as a person that does not consume a lot of alcohol. The night of the incident she recalled [the accuser] being fine and that’s why she was OK letting her go when she received the text.”

Monique is the ACCUSER'S FRIEND that she went out with that night.

@Mackeyser I really want to take a step back and let me fairly break down BOTH sides of the story for you. You consider both sides of the story objectively and then honestly tell me if you believe the facts are so abundantly clear that you think it's obvious that Winston is guilty. Are you willing to do that? This means doing your best to let go of any conclusory judgements. I am not going to present any facts that are speculative. Which means there will be some holes in both stories. But I think that's the point.

I mean, the NYT did an exemplary job.

I think they did a terrible job. Their article was slanted and biased. They could have reported the facts of the case and shed light on it without completely ignoring all the evidence contrary to the purpose of their story. That's not fair and objective journalism. The NYT should be ashamed of the lack of objectiveness in their piece.

 

[Mackeyser]

Nowhere in the documentation does it say anything about what tests were conducted, period. She went to the hospital, had a rape kit done, etc. If the story is consistent with a roofie, why would the medical professional not order those tests? You're assuming facts. That's exactly the point I'm making. You can't assume facts. You can't fill in the blanks with theories and opinions to come to your desired conclusion. And that's exactly why I think it's a mistake to come to a concrete conclusion on this allegation. Here are a few facts: they took her to the emergency room, they had her medically examined and a rape kit done, and they had urine AND blood samples taken to be tested. I do not know what tests they conducted but the blood test came back negative for drugs. This was all done within 2 hours of the rape being reported.(the emergency room aspect...not the testing, obviously)

I'll say it again. And again. And again. Why would the medical professional not order those tests? Because the entire investigation was botched from the very beginning. So much so that the prosecutor in the case has determined that the case is IMPOSSIBLE TO PROSECUTE. That doesn't mean that Winston is innocent. It means that TPD screwed all of this up so badly, so FUBAR, that there is simply no way to present a criminal case.

To wit, if the direction from the investigating officer wasn't that she could possibly have been Roofied, then the doctor would NOT have ordered the test as part the standard rape drug testing protocol.

What about that do you NOT understand??? Standard Drug/Tox screens DO NOT test for nor screen for Rohypnol. That requires a SEPARATE test! I just posted that snippet from the University of Arkansas. I'd bet MONEY that they did NOT test her for Rohypnol, especially based on statements he made both at the time and later (according to HIM, btw). You assume that because she went in that everything was done properly when all the evidence to date proves that this investigation has been so poorly done that Winston can't... can not stand trial solely based on the incompetence of the TPD investigation.

We don't have all the facts. We don't know these things. Making guesses about facts to make conclusions about guilt just seems completely unfair to me.

Here's something interesting:

Monique is the ACCUSER'S FRIEND that she went out with that night.

@Mackeyser I really want to take a step back and let me fairly break down BOTH sides of the story for you. You consider both sides of the story objectively and then honestly tell me if you believe the facts are so abundantly clear that you think it's obvious that Winston is guilty. Are you willing to do that? This means doing your best to let go of any conclusory judgements. I am not going to present any facts that are speculative. Which means there will be some holes in both stories. But I think that's the point.

I think they did a terrible job. Their article was slanted and biased. They could have reported the facts of the case and shed light on it without completely ignoring all the evidence contrary to the purpose of their story. That's not fair and objective journalism. The NYT should be ashamed of the lack of objectiveness in their piece.

BOTH sides? Okay. Show me the side where you think Winston's guilty. Cuz I've yet to see you break THAT side down... All I'm getting from you is this very weak reliance on the complete crap that came out of TPD and everything from them thus far has been total and complete garbage. That detective's report is disgusting and borders on perjury (he outright lied in his report about the victim wanting to close the case and being uncooperative) and the only reason he's not at risk for problems in front of a judge is because this was so fubar that this case will never get in front of a judge.

Do you have the foggiest idea what Rohypnol poisoning looks like? Do you? Because the witness accounts are in PERFECT accord with Rohypnol poisoning. The accuser did not appear drunk, yet the accused say that she was very drunk. It's pretty much the textbook definition of what "getting Roofied" looks like, but if that's not it, then how else is she not drunk when she leaves her friends and without further substantial consumption of alcohol, very drunk later? Well, which is it? You've tried to say that she's been BOTH in your full throated defense Winston. You can't say you don't know or we can't know if you're fully advocating a position and you undermine your position if you take both sides.

What I've said all along is that the accuser's story SEEMS credible. It is REMARKABLY CONSISTENT with other women's accounts who have been drugged with Rohypnol including the victims of Darren Sharper. It is plausible for the friends' accounts to differ somewhat from the accuser's account...because Rohypnol has that effect.

Do you have any idea what it takes for a woman to even make the call to say she's been raped? Any idea? To even acknowledge the horror is tremendously traumatizing and all too often the process is merely a revictimization. And this young woman did exactly what she was supposed to do. She called a friend and they called 911. They didn't wait. Had she been served by a competent police department, Winston would likely be in jail as we speak.

Btw, this...right here... this is why more women don't report rape. Police don't believe the accuser, they investigate the accuser as much if not more than the accused and remarkably often are either apathetic to the victim or downright hostile.

Is it possible that Winston is innocent of these charges? Yes. I've said that. I think it is tremendously unlikely given all of the accounts given thus far, which is why rather than defer, I've come to the conclusion I have. And you can ask anyone who's known me. Hell, ask Les. He's known me for almost 15 years. I rarely come to a conclusion without doing exhaustive research and applying principled standards to achieve it. And if I'm wrong, I'll own it without reservation. On principle.

The reason we "can't know" isn't because this case is a mystery. It's because of the incompetence of the TPD. We most certainly can apply logic, deductive reasoning, forensics, precedent, medicine and other disciplines to arrive at a conclusion that gets at the truth of what happened.

So... GO RAMS. The more we win, the less chance we have at this rapist turd. Plus, we play to win the game. I can see Tampa getting him... and that will be a massive disaster. You watch...

 

[drasconis]

I think that it is important for those that like Winston to realzie the league has also changed a great deal in recent years. We all know the issues/stories of guys like Little, Ben R., and others. Those happened a few years ago (I realize it wasn't that long ago), and much has changed since then. With the recent hits to the leagues image do you think they would still be playing if that came out today? I tend to think that off the field risks have become as large if not large risks for NFL teams. Years ago you could ignore most of it, now 1 bad event can mean the player is gone. I do worry that this hasn't trickled down to the colleges yet and that the players get waway with things there and do not realize that will all change the moment they add their name to the draft (or earlier - but that tend to be talk outside their little bubble so they rarely seem to notice).

 

[Alan]

Mackeyser getting to the crux of the matter:
We most certainly can apply logic, deductive reasoning, forensics, precedent, medicine and other disciplines to arrive at a conclusion that gets at the truth of what happened.

While I agree with @jrry32 's contention that much of what you're saying is speculation and circumstantial (as you admit), it's speculation based on what I've quoted above. That's enough for me to come to my personal, if not legal, conclusion about this incident.

Rarely is there evidence that that achieves 100% certainty but then you only need to get to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. I don't think we'll ever get there due to the reasons you've stated Mac. Reminds of of the situation in Ferguson. When the cops/DA are in cahoots with the criminals justice will never be served.

 

[jrry32]

I'll say it again. And again. And again. Why would the medical professional not order those tests? Because the entire investigation was botched from the very beginning. So much so that the prosecutor in the case has determined that the case is IMPOSSIBLE TO PROSECUTE. That doesn't mean that Winston is innocent. It means that TPD screwed all of this up so badly, so FUBAR, that there is simply no way to present a criminal case.

To wit, if the direction from the investigating officer wasn't that she could possibly have been Roofied, then the doctor would NOT have ordered the test as part the standard rape drug testing protocol.

What about that do you NOT understand??? Standard Drug/Tox screens DO NOT test for nor screen for Rohypnol. That requires a SEPARATE test! I just posted that snippet from the University of Arkansas. I'd bet MONEY that they did NOT test her for Rohypnol, especially based on statements he made both at the time and later (according to HIM, btw). You assume that because she went in that everything was done properly when all the evidence to date proves that this investigation has been so poorly done that Winston can't... can not stand trial solely based on the incompetence of the TPD investigation.

This is all conjecture. You're filling in the blanks with your opinion. They took blood and urine. Urine tests are used to detect date rape drugs. They had the tests done by the FDLE AND more tests done to confirm the results by a UF Doctor. I don't know what tests were conducted. You don't know what tests were conducted. But I think it's a mistake to concur that they didn't conduct the test based on ZERO evidence because it suits your opinion of what happened that night.

Furthermore, it seems to me based on the limited facts I have that the protocols followed by the TPD in getting her to the hospital, having everything collected, and getting it tested was proper but I can't say for sure. The misconduct seems to have come later.

BOTH sides? Okay.

Facts that support the victim

• Rape was reported almost immediately after she got home
• Winston admits she was in his apartment and they had sex
• She had some bruises on her which could imply force
• Winston's DNA found on her clothes
• Story consistent with lack of capacity and date rape drug
• Descriptions of 3 men are similar to Chris Casher, Jameis Winston, and Ronald Darby(all of whom lived in the apartment) and later identified Winston
• Description of apartment was accurate

Facts that support Jameis Winston

• Winston's consensual sex claims are supported by testimony of Casher and Darby
• Accounts from victim's friends dispute her story
• Victim's story was inconsistent(it changed) and was different from the story she told her friends
• Urine and Blood tests were done -> No drugs found in her system and BAC at time blood was drawn(about 2 hours after supposed rape) was 0.048(which makes it highly unlikely that she was overwhelmingly intoxicated when rape occurred)
• Victim claimed that football player named Chris that got her number was not present at the time of the rape or in the cab with her(key fact misrepresented by New York Times article)
• Victim received text from unknown person saying, "Meet me out front" and according to her friend, willingly left the bar while not seeming intoxicated or incapacitated
• There is no allegation that Winston, Casher, or Darby handed the victim a drink or had anything to do with any drinks she received(regarding the date rape drug claim)

Facts that are relevant but don't necessarily support either side

• There was a second DNA source on her clothing which ended up being her boyfriend
• Police misconduct and incompetence in investigating the case
• Video taken of sexual acts by Casher deleted from his phone

Important remaining questions

1. What tests were conducted on the blood and urine collected?
2. When and why did Casher delete the video?
3. If she was drugged, who drugged her?

Obviously, is it rape or was the sex consensual is a question but there's no point in stating such an obvious question.

Is there anything I missed? Any possible questions that I missed?

 

[jrry32]

While I agree with @jrry32 's contention that much of what you're saying is speculation and circumstantial (as you admit), it's speculation based on what I've quoted above. That's enough for me to come to my personal, if not legal, conclusion about this incident.

Rarely is there evidence that that achieves 100% certainty but then you only need to get to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold. I don't think we'll ever get there due to the reasons you've stated Mac. Reminds of of the situation in Ferguson. When the cops/DA are in cahoots with the criminals justice will never be served.

I don't think you could even meet the preponderance of the evidence standard...much less clear and convincing or beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Alan]

jrry32 thinking it's not enough:
I don't think you could even meet the preponderance of the evidence standard...much less clear and convincing or beyond a reasonable doubt.

Every jury is different so you're probably right in some cases but I think you're greatly downplaying the force of circumstantial evidence. Many cases are tried and result in convictions on circumstantial evidence alone. But then that's why I said "personal" and not legal.

 

[BriansRams]

I want Davis to make the QB discussion superfluous.

I don't feel like that will happen, sorry. Just my strong opinion.

 

[jrry32]

Every jury is different so you're probably right in some cases but I think you're greatly downplaying the force of circumstantial evidence. Many cases are tried and result in convictions on circumstantial evidence alone. But then that's why I said "personal" and not legal.

That's the issue. There's a complete lack of evidence here. It's a he said/she said story with the majority of testimony and evidence not favoring the accuser. I'm not saying that proves innocence, only that charges were not filed for good reason. There just isn't evidence to prove guilt.

 

[blue4]

To me, the legality of this is irrelevant. There is innocent until proven guilty, and Winston isn't in jail, so the system is working and none of his rights are being abused. However, there is no right to employment, nor is there a right to play NFL QB. So the question is not is he guilty, but under the circumstances should he be employed by the St Louis Rams. We're going to look at drafting him, not prosecuting him. To me, the clear answer is no. There is a 50/50 shot he raped a woman, and that is more than enough for me to say no way. People have been winning SB's without a HOF'er QB since the game started. Having great depth is at least as important, and I'll always argue that a quality OL is more important.

 

[Mackeyser]

For the last time and I really have to just move on because this is just going nowhere.

Now, I will give you credit for at least giving a better summation of SOME of the facts than you've done thus far.

However, and this is IMPORTANT.

Tox screens DO NOT TEST FOR NOR SCREEN FOR ROHYPNOL.

So if the TPD or any of the TPD defenders wanted to get out from under THAT claim, all they have to do is to state that they ordered that test. It's an EXTRA test. They have not. All they have stated is that they ordered a standard tox screen which DOES NOT TEST FOR NOR SCREEN FOR ROHYPNOL.

Now, I really don't like doing the caps thing, but this is just beyond ridiculous. We know that they did NOT order the extra test because if they had ordered the extra test than they, they being the Tallahassee PD, they would have said so in order to not look so damned incompetent the umpteen times the media has grilled them over this botched investigation.

Also, several of your facts that purport to support Jameis Winston either are inconclusive or support the victim.

• Winston's consensual sex claims are supported by testimony of Casher and Darby
• ***Considering these two may be co-conspirators, their testimony must be viewed in that light and can't be viewed as exculpatory.
  
• Accounts from victim's friends dispute her story
• ***This is just untrue. The victim had inconsistencies in her story which is perfectly consistent with Rohypnol poisoning. The job of a good investigator would be to parse the inconsistencies and determine the material facts from her testimony. The victim's friends have details which differ. That's a FAR CRY from the friends' stories DISPUTING the victim's story.
  
• Victim's story was inconsistent(it changed) and was different from the story she told her friends
• ***See above. Consistent with Rohypnol poisoning and differing details does not meet the criteria for dispute as you would have us believe. The friends of the victim are NOT via their testimony essentially calling the victim a liar, which is what YOU are doing.
  
• Urine and Blood tests were done -> No drugs found in her system and BAC at time blood was drawn(about 2 hours after supposed rape) was 0.048(which makes it highly unlikely that she was overwhelmingly intoxicated when rape occurred)
• ***Have repeated this. Unless they specifically ordered a Rohypnol screen IT WAS NOT DONE. Rohypnol will NOT show up on a Tox screen. Considering the level of incompetence, delay and obstruction in this investigation by TPD as well as FSU, I am incredulous that the investigator would order the EXTRA test. Downright incredulous. As in... I don't believe it for a damned minute.

Now, given the facts YOU'VE acknowledged... even if you dispute the counter-argument that I've made... I'm totally at a loss as to how you reconcile this. And this is not the only troubling sexual encounter he's had. We do not know if the other encounter was similar in nature to this. We just know that the other young lady was so upset that she visited a crisis counselor about it. She didn't just drop in to tell the crisis counselor that she had casual sex. She stated that she refused to call it rape because she "didn't say no". That doesn't mean it wasn't rape. We don't know if she was incapable of saying no. That's another aspect to Rohypnol poisoning. We do know that the encounter was so troubling that the crisis counselor forwarded the incident information.

So, that makes TWO young women who've had... troubling sexual encounters with this young man. And since LESS THAN 2% of rape accusations are false... it's very likely that he's guilty. What's more, this young lady has done everything right and so much of what should be there....isn't there only because of TPD's obstruction. That phone video was crucial evidence, for example. Gone forever now.

The issue isn't "coming to a baseless conclusion." There is enough information out there to get pretty damned close.

 

[RamFan503]

I'm not sure where you guys (mainly Jrry and Mac) think this is going at this point in the season. We have 2 months of play ahead to watch these guys play and see what else comes out. There is even talk that Jameis is leaning toward returning to FSU so he could clean up his image. I think that would make him a moot point then - right?

In either case, why go after each other over a QB that might or might not be in the picture for us only half way through the college and NFL season. I could maybe see this if we knew where we will be drafting. I would also say that once NFL scouts, GMs, and HCs get done with the regular season, they will be looking more in depth at things like character, actual skills translating to the NFL, motivation, leadership qualities, etc...

The talk of who the Rams should draft at QB is pre-mature enough without trying to put a maybe possible candidate on trial here. Have at it if you want (within reason) but you are just beating each other up over nothing.

 

[Alan]

jrry32 missing the point:
That's the issue. There's a complete lack of evidence here. It's a he said/she said story with the majority of testimony and evidence not favoring the accuser. I'm not saying that proves innocence, only that charges were not filed for good reason. There just isn't evidence to prove guilt.

At some time, when you were reading Mac's and my posts, you lost sight of the fact that both of us said that there wasn't enough evidence to bring it to trial. In Mac's case he contends that the lack of evidence in the accuser's favor was due to the criminal (IMO) collusion between the police and the accused. The irregularities in the investigation are a matter of public record in some cases and could be reasonably inferred in others. I myself made it a point to say that it was only my personal opinion that he was guilty and that there wasn't enough evidence, as you've stated, to prosecute him.

This is the same problem with the case in Ferguson. The illegal irregularities are too many to mention here but one of them, not requiring the accused to write an incident report, is so egregious that there are rumors the Justice Department is going to mandate a shake up in their police department. The irregularities and the DA's complicity (IMO) in the cover up and probable totally intentional botching of the grand jury proceedings will probably allow that killer cop to walk but does that mean most people don't know (to their own satisfaction) he's guilty of murder?

You seem to be hung up on a point that neither of us is contesting. The issue is how did we get to this point.