It's time for a change at OC

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LesBaker

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yea i don't believe that for a second - if walton had put together a better defense i think he'd still be here...can only imagine how fisher feels now

He may be OK with this right now as he may know it takes "X" amount of time to learn the system or whatever. Maybe, and this is speculation, they have changed the timeline since Bradford and some other guys have gotten hurt, and we lost two games we should have won. Maybe this season is now "learn and grow" and then next year is when they raise expectations.

Fisher may now be using this year to get ready for a run coming up for all we know. It's happened in sports before. Sometimes plans and expectations change mid-stream. It's not like tanking a season if you understand what I am saying.
 

Zaphod

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Call me crazy but I prefer the style that works and that usually requires the coordinator to be able to make adjustments during the game. Neither one of our coordinators have shown they can do that, at least not on this team.
I don't know, Williams was constantly changing things up throughout the game. Different fronts, and different formations. The Chief and 49ers both did a really good job of exploiting what was open on a lot of plays.

I'm personally not a fan of the 10 yard off coverage for the corners (though I admit we'll have to see a lot of that with two rookie corners), but even those deep zones that are designed to prevent on third and long should have worked and only didn't due to poor execution.

My only criticism of him in the last game is that the right call is the right call for a situation even if it doesn't work due to poor execution. To me, you don't switch to something else that you know won't work in a desperate attempt to cover for horrible execution.

But I can only guess that with the injuries, we're going to sadly see a lot of trial and error.
 

Zaphod

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I don't blame Schottenheimer for the loss woes, but the lack of ascension from our talented players speaks volumes about his ability to run a viable offense. If given the pink slip, I hope we find someone better and not create another Tony Sparano or Marty Morthinweg situation, the Jets offense got progressively worse as Schotty left. I'd like to find an OC who specializes in maximizing output with what we have in our roster. Chip Kelly's Eagles offense mixes Oregon spread and Andy Reid West Coast Offense to maximize the talent with what they have, I want someone who can do the same consistently because he's slowly ruining Tavon's career with these runs up the middle at tailback type plays.
We seriously don't have the offensive line to even think about Chip Kelly's defense, especially now. And even if we drafted specifically for that, it would take some time to work those players in. I actually love the no huddle used more often, especially with Kelly's run heavy system, but we just don't have the personnel or the defense to run that.

I try to see where Tavon fits, and to me I think he may just be ideally be used more in motion which could be ideal in no-huddle if that's what you were alluding to?

I still think that like Quick I think we should all give him 3 years to come into his own before drawing any conclusions. Of course, with our rotten luck he'll be injured just as he's obviously bloomed as a WR for us.
 

rams56

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Tavon is blazing fast.....AZ Hakim was blazing fast... I think he should be used just like Az.....make the defense not only defend him horizontally. ..but also vertically. ....a full route tree....let him take the top off the defense every so often. .. let him stretch it deep taking the safety with him and then run the bigger receivers underneath him on deep crosses and posts.....just a thought...
Go Rams........ ;)
 
Last edited:

V3

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I don't know, Williams was constantly changing things up throughout the game. Different fronts, and different formations. The Chief and 49ers both did a really good job of exploiting what was open on a lot of plays.

I'm personally not a fan of the 10 yard off coverage for the corners (though I admit we'll have to see a lot of that with two rookie corners), but even those deep zones that are designed to prevent on third and long should have worked and only didn't due to poor execution.

My only criticism of him in the last game is that the right call is the right call for a situation even if it doesn't work due to poor execution. To me, you don't switch to something else that you know won't work in a desperate attempt to cover for horrible execution.

But I can only guess that with the injuries, we're going to sadly see a lot of trial and error.

That's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. I get that they were all rookies against KC but the Chiefs were killing the Rams with the short stuff and Williams didn't change one bit. Smith only threw ONE ball that went over 10 yards the entire game. Every other throw was short stuff because our LB's and DB's were playing so far off or blitzing. I get that he's worried about the rookies getting burned but he could have at least tried to stop some of the short throws when it was painfully obvious that's what was coming. That was just that game. There are many other instances where I thought Williams didn't adjust to what was going on on the field. For example, he doesn't need to blitz so much. Other teams know it's coming so they use screens, sweeps(kill us), swing passes, draws, etc. When other teams know what you're going to do and then use that against you, you're getting outcoached. At least that's how I see it.
 

Irish

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Tavon is blazingly fast.....AZ Hakim was blazingly fast... I think he should be used just like Az.....make the defence not only defend him horizontally. ..but also vertically. ....a full route tree....let him take the top off the defense every so often. .. let him stretch it deep taking the safety with him and then run the bigger reserves underneath him on deep crosses and posts.....just a thought...
Go Rams........ ;)
I keep hearing the Az Hakim comparison in regards to Tavon. They are not at all the same player, period.

Tavon is quick and shifty, but he has to use those talents to compensate for the fact that he is not big enough to play in the NFL. It takes him more steps and more moves to get open because he ahs to be wide. ass. open. on any play to warrant throwing the ball to him. His lack of physical stature does not allow the QB to throw him jump balls or allow the QB to trust that Tavon will bring the ball down. If Austin isn't 3-4 steps behind a defender or clear in the open field, it takes a perfect pass in a tiny window for him to be effective with it.

That is why Tavon lines up as a tailback so much: Davis cannot throw the ball into the tight windows and thread the ball past players to get it to him, so their only option (according to Schotty) is to strictly hand the ball off to him in the backfield.

Az Hakim, while small by NFL standards, is still 3 inches taller than Austin is, and most importantly he had Warner, a real QB, who could throw the ball in tight windows for completions. Also, because of the incredible WR talent on those Rams teams, Hakim could run gadget plays, and because CBs and Safeties HAD to respect the Rams WRs on the outside, you couldn't dedicate your best players to defend him. Often times it was the dime back who would be tasked with defending Hakim's trickery: Austin simply does not have that.

Finally, and this may be the most important facet of all: Hakim was a fourth round pick, whereas Austin was the 8th player taken overall in his draft class. If Austin puts up Hakim's career numbers (9 pro seasons, 316 receptions, 4,191 yards receiving, 28 receiving touchdowns) he would still go down as a colossal, monumental gaffe simply from the standpoint of the relative value of the picks surrendered to get him. Let's face it, at this point, we have no reason to believe Austin's body will allow him to play 9 seasons (especially running the ball off tackle 5 times a game/ 80+ attempts per year), and all of this, coupled with subpar QB play, coupled with Schottenheimer's seeming inability to use him "properly" (whatever the hell that means. NFL wide receivers should carry NFL wide receiver expectations) points to a career path that falls dramatically below Hakim's career output.
 

yrba1

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We seriously don't have the offensive line to even think about Chip Kelly's defense, especially now. And even if we drafted specifically for that, it would take some time to work those players in. I actually love the no huddle used more often, especially with Kelly's run heavy system, but we just don't have the personnel or the defense to run that.

I try to see where Tavon fits, and to me I think he may just be ideally be used more in motion which could be ideal in no-huddle if that's what you were alluding to?

I still think that like Quick I think we should all give him 3 years to come into his own before drawing any conclusions. Of course, with our rotten luck he'll be injured just as he's obviously bloomed as a WR for us.

Not saying we should run Chip Kelly's offense, just find someone who will actually use our offense's strengths. Right now, I'm seeing lackluster adjustments throughout the 2nd and 3rd quarter with this team. Where are the screens, the quick slants to nullify the blitz and keep defenses honest.
 

Zaphod

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That's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. I get that they were all rookies against KC but the Chiefs were killing the Rams with the short stuff and Williams didn't change one bit. Smith only threw ONE ball that went over 10 yards the entire game. Every other throw was short stuff because our LB's and DB's were playing so far off or blitzing. I get that he's worried about the rookies getting burned but he could have at least tried to stop some of the short throws when it was painfully obvious that's what was coming. That was just that game. There are many other instances where I thought Williams didn't adjust to what was going on on the field. For example, he doesn't need to blitz so much. Other teams know it's coming so they use screens, sweeps(kill us), swing passes, draws, etc. When other teams know what you're going to do and then use that against you, you're getting outcoached. At least that's how I see it.
Not disagreeing that he's being out-coached and blitzes too much, the blitzing was a concern of mine before this year even started, but other than than and a lot of off coverage for the rookie corners, I've noticed a lot of different formations, especially on 3rd down.

But I could be wrong, I'm not typically very objective until I see the coach's film on rewind.
 

rams56

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I keep hearing the Az Hakim comparison in regards to Tavon. They are not at all the same player, period.

Tavon is quick and shifty, but he has to use those talents to compensate for the fact that he is not big enough to play in the NFL. It takes him more steps and more moves to get open because he ahs to be wide. ass. open. on any play to warrant throwing the ball to him. His lack of physical stature does not allow the QB to throw him jump balls or allow the QB to trust that Tavon will bring the ball down. If Austin isn't 3-4 steps behind a defender or clear in the open field, it takes a perfect pass in a tiny window for him to be effective with it.

That is why Tavon lines up as a tailback so much: Davis cannot throw the ball into the tight windows and thread the ball past players to get it to him, so their only option (according to Schotty) is to strictly hand the ball off to him in the backfield.

Az Hakim, while small by NFL standards, is still 3 inches taller than Austin is, and most importantly he had Warner, a real QB, who could throw the ball in tight windows for completions. Also, because of the incredible WR talent on those Rams teams, Hakim could run gadget plays, and because CBs and Safeties HAD to respect the Rams WRs on the outside, you couldn't dedicate your best players to defend him. Often times it was the dime back who would be tasked with defending Hakim's trickery: Austin simply does not have that.

Finally, and this may be the most important facet of all: Hakim was a fourth round pick, whereas Austin was the 8th player taken overall in his draft class. If Austin puts up Hakim's career numbers (9 pro seasons, 316 receptions, 4,191 yards receiving, 28 receiving touchdowns) he would still go down as a colossal, monumental gaffe simply from the standpoint of the relative value of the picks surrendered to get him. Let's face it, at this point, we have no reason to believe Austin's body will allow him to play 9 seasons (especially running the ball off tackle 5 times a game/ 80+ attempts per year), and all of this, coupled with subpar QB play, coupled with Schottenheimer's seeming inability to use him "properly" (whatever the hell that means. NFL wide receivers should carry NFL wide receiver expectations) points to a career path that falls dramatically below Hakim's career output.

I completely DISAGREE with you on this......first of all only 2 inches shorter but .06 seconds faster. ... he caught 112 passes for 1289yds and 12 tds his senior season running a full route tree.. oh and by the way only 1 drop... you have to be given chances before you Can determine whether he can do it or not....and I promise you there is not one NFL safety that will not help in deep coverage on Austin..... the alternative is Austin one on one with your nickel corner.... he with a quick and shifty 4.34 speed against anyone..... plus didn't he have all his production with Geno Smith as his qb? Anyway we will have to agree to disagree on this...
Go Rams.............. ;)
 

DaveFan'51

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Well, Austin certainly seems wasted under him.
For all the improvement I've seen in Schotty's Play calling, It's mind boggling, Why can't he find a way to take advantage of Tavon's gifts!?
 

goldenram

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Not saying we should run Chip Kelly's offense, just find someone who will actually use our offense's strengths. Right now, I'm seeing lackluster adjustments throughout the 2nd and 3rd quarter with this team. Where are the screens, the quick slants to nullify the blitz and keep defenses honest.

You are CORRECT! Our Offense looks like world beaters out of the gate. THEN when opposing teams figure out that our OL can't block a blitz, ITS ON. Schotty doesn't seem to make ANY adjustments to help the offense out. Got to have some quick 3 step drops, slants, screens, and runs other than up the middle into a pile. (Jet Sweep with Tavon?) I know that this is the NFL but AD is a smart and athletic QB. I've watched him from HS through SMiss and I know he is very capable of those plays and throws. Most of his passes at SMiss were <10 yds slants and screens with the occasional down field shot. Also at SMiss HE RAN for 1375 yds and 26 TDs, pretty good scrambler. (spin move vs Seachics) Looks like Schotty doesn't have that in his book either.
 

BatteringRambo

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Schotty has been a ok in my fan book. It has taken us 3 off seasons to build respectable offense. Only we never got to see it when it counted....Ala no Bradford to truly know. Schotty, while paid well to do what he does has once again dealth with already a multitude of challenges. From my view I admit the play callings in the 2nd half of games so far includes some head scratches. It goes 50/50, everyone has to gel and not half ass it. From WR's outside of Quick I only saw that in Quick with a few blinks by TA. Cook has faded off...I don't want to pick it all apart you get the jist.
 

Thordaddy

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As far as the "good old boys" coaching staff charge Vermeils staff was similar,the criticism that we take too many plays to score, ball control is our HC's idea and that is a recipe to win keeping the other offense and our defense off the field what is more our long ball QB has been hurt what will be half the time.
I personally believe if our defense was able to protect leads we've gotten in games our offensive production would be MORE than it has been and we'd still be in the hunt for a playoff spot even in the minds of the most pessimistic of fans.
I'm not saying I'm a Shotty fan but considering what he's been able to do with backup QB's I think it's hard to make the case he's the problem.

Greg Williams on the other hand has very little rope left with me
 

Zaphod

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As far as the "good old boys" coaching staff charge Vermeils staff was similar,the criticism that we take too many plays to score, ball control is our HC's idea and that is a recipe to win keeping the other offense and our defense off the field what is more our long ball QB has been hurt what will be half the time.
I personally believe if our defense was able to protect leads we've gotten in games our offensive production would be MORE than it has been and we'd still be in the hunt for a playoff spot even in the minds of the most pessimistic of fans.
I'm not saying I'm a Shotty fan but considering what he's been able to do with backup QB's I think it's hard to make the case he's the problem.

Greg Williams on the other hand has very little rope left with me
It's so obvious, right?

The head coach is the one who makes the call for ball control, and he's doing it because he has no choice. And I really want to blame Fisher for bringing Williams in, but ... had it not been for the bounty scandal, this team would probably already be where they want it to be defensively.

Which I'm sure is a hard hitting all out effort and get off the field fast kind of defense. Even as annoyed as I am that Williams isn't working out right now, I have to at least give the coordinator until the end of the year to see if he can put together some semblance of a successful defense. Especially when you take into consideration the injuries we've had.
 

Merlin

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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I think a lot of fans have Fisher wrong. He's not some crazy, overbearing guy who insists on things being his way no matter what, in order to keep this offense in the dark ages. I think he green lighted last year's aborted "opening up" of the offense by putting a lot of trust in Schotty, who was not able to get this offensive unit to produce the way they should have.

He insists on balance, sure. But so does Chip Kelly. It's a key part of offensive football. Bottom line is Schotty is letting him down because he cannot field a consistent passing offense. Even considering the injuries there is just no way he's maximizing his talent, and he never has. He never will. Not in this league.

I just pray that Fish is smart enough to push Schotty out the door. Hoping that they would promote Cigs from within before the year is out, I will admit is probably too much for Fish. But the bottom line is he's not necessarily going to be against getting a better OC in here who can run a real passing game. If I'm Snead or Demoff, right now I'm gonna be doing a lot of research on young offensive minds around the league and in college ball. I'm going to put together a strong list for Fish of guys who are demonstrating ability at OC instead of just being a coach's son, or a guy who can wow you in an interview.
 

Amitar

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I blame Fisher as much as Shotty for allowing this to go on. If Shotty is not gone soon then I think, IMHO, that the Rams need a change at HC also.
 

BriansRams

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Maybe this season is now "learn and grow" and then next year is when they raise expectations.

Um, no, that was last year, and the year before. They can't just keep saying that every year.
 

Ballhawk

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Even though I'm tired of Shotty's "offense" I'm much more disappointed by GW's failure to use the great players that he inherited to make the great defense that we should have by now. He has somehow completely ruined a great pass rush, even after adding Donald, and also has figured out a way to thwart our two tackling machine of last year at LB!