Experimental ACL Surgery being performed in Canada

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

ramsince62

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
2,581
Opinions are opinions man. You say reaching, I say looking at different angles. How many times does a QB get hit by a 300 lb lineman? Especially compared to people who put extreme pressures angles and speeds on there knees?

This isn't just about Bradford. What about athletes like DX? Think he would try something like this for a few more years of living his dream?

I'm always reading about people who go around the world for experimental cures, procedures, etc.. Why? Because of the FDA.

Research Mike Spinner, Matt Hoffman and several other extreme athletes. They have all gone to Canada to have ACL procedures. Why? Because the FDA wont approve it here.

This is legitimate stuff to discuss. What is the NFL's stance on this kind of stuff? How does it affect contracts. Could this be better for second even third tears?

I will keep reaching for answers while you stand with the status quo.

I'm neither arguing for or against experimental cures, although "cure" seems a misnomer. Instead, I'm trying to point out the realities of the situation. According to medical opinions I have read, the consensus appears to be that (at minimum), a second ACL will require 18 mo's or better for a "sound" recovery. So exactly what is the point opining about some sort of unproven or unorthodox surgery at this moment?
 

tahoe

Pro Bowler
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
1,664
Once again RG3 came back from having a second ACL injury, that happened in the playoffs, the very next season. He was not as effective because he did come back too soon but Bradford will have 6 more months to heal than RG3 did. I dont know where people are getting this "it takes over a year to recover crap" but its simply not accurate.
 

anode8

Professional lurker, occasional poster.
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
85
Name
Ron
Another fun fact: Mat Hoffman went through one of his ACL replacement surgeries with NO ANESTHESIA!
That dude is seriously tough. I don't question for a minute that the upper level extreme sports athletes put their bodies through every bit of the torture of the average NFL player.

http://www.maxim.com/sports/mat-hoffman-pain-dont-hurt
 

ramsince62

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
2,581
@the zohan gave me a heads-up about this after reading about the question regarding QBs who have come back from 2 ACL surgeries. It's an interesting read, and I wonder if Bradford has been made aware of it. Or if the NFL would even permit it? I have no idea how their medical coverage works. He could, of course, just go ahead and do it on his own, but I don't know how it would effect his contract.

Anyway...


How experimental knee surgery got Kaya Turski ready for the Olympics

By Carmen Chai Global News
http://globalnews.ca/news/1124694/h...rgery-got-kaya-turski-ready-for-the-olympics/

[parsehtml]<iframe src="http://globalnews.ca/video/embed/1128925/" width="670" height="437" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/parsehtml]

Watch the video above:
Canadian Freestyle skier Kaya Turski’s comeback helped by experimental surgery. Crystal Goomansingh reports.

TORONTO – It happened on her last day of training with the Canadian ski team in Mount Hood.

Olympic athlete Kaya Turski was working on a switch left side rotation, a spin that isn’t a natural move for her. She came around the turn just a little short and felt a snap.

She knew right away what it was – she’d ruptured her anterior cruciate ligament, a bundle of fibres crucial in stabilizing the knee, twice before.

That was August 11. The Montreal native was just six months away from the Olympics.

“A zillion things went through my mind when I fell and I felt my knee go. You know, obviously the Olympics was the first thing that came up,” Turski told Global News.

“It’s something I have been training for for as long as the event has been included, basically my whole life.”

[parsehtml]<iframe src="http://globalnews.ca/video/embed/1128039/" width="670" height="437" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/parsehtml]

Fast forward to just a week before the Olympics: Turski captured her fifth Winter X Games gold medal in women’s ski slopestyle.

But her road to recovery came with the help of a Canadian doctor and an experimental knee surgery combining a cadaver’s ligaments and synthetic ones.

“The challenge is, it’s not her first time. So the decision-making is quite a bit different than someone who’s already had the surgery,” Dr. Bob Litchfield said.

He’s the medical director of the Fowler Kennedy Sport Medicine Clinic and a professor at the University of Western Ontario. It was his skilled hands that oversaw Turski’s surgery and recovery.

In Turski’s case, Litchfield had to take into account the hardware that’s already in her knee, tunnels already drilled through bone from her previous injuries.

WATCH: Kaya’s video diary from the day she discovered injury through surgery and recovery to her return to the slopes

[parsehtml]<iframe src="http://globalnews.ca/video/embed/1125766/" width="670" height="437" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/parsehtml]

With a countdown to the Winter Games looming, Turski and Litchfield also didn’t have time on their side.

Ultimately, Litchfield decided that he could put new soft tissue grafts in her knee, supplemented by a synthetic ligament. The grafts, which are tissue that replicates the function of the ACL, were used from donor cadavers.

The anterior cruciate ligament joins the tibia through to the femur. It’s important in stabilizing – especially with a stop-and-go sport. It controls when you plant your foot, change directions, turn on a ski and land from a jump.

Those are all stressors on the ACL. And sometimes, like in Turski’s case, the load is too great.

Between the cadaver’s tissue and the synthetic ligament, Litchfield said he hopes the knee surgery will give Turski immediate stability and that over time, the graft will grow into her own bone.

READ MORE: Canadian skier earns Olympic berth the hard way

“We didn’t want to go through a short-term solution for Kaya. She’s still a very young person,” Litchfield said.

“I sure hope it’s the last surgery she has on this knee. That’s the plan, anyway.”

[parsehtml]<iframe src="http://globalnews.ca/video/embed/1125396/" width="670" height="437" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/parsehtml]

ACL reconstructions and revisions of ACL reconstructions are pretty common, especially in young professional athletes. Revision rates can reach as high as 20 per cent for reconstruction, Litchfield said.

“The difference with this surgery was, most of the time we’re using tissue alone and in Kaya’s case, we’ve incorporated tissue with synthetic together with the goal of trying to get her back to high-level performance earlier,” Litchfield said.

“In that way, it is unusual and I guess experimental, if you will.”

READ MORE: Canada’s Turski wins slopestyle gold at freestyle worlds, Howell wins silver

It’s unclear how the synthetic will hold up, especially with Turski’s slope-style skiing.

She’s constantly coming from height, accelerating, slowing down and landing jumps, akin to a gymnast doing aerials and multiple back flips.

Litchfield said he’ll be watching Turski like a “nervous father.”

“We learn a lot from elite athletes. We learn what is capable of the human body that we didn’t think was capable,” Litchfield said.

For now, he wouldn’t recommend this kind of surgery to a larger group of patients. But that could change.

“Surgery’s always evolving. We’re always looking at new techniques and better ways of doing things and better ways of decreasing failure rates and re-injury rates so it has to stand up to scientific scrutiny,” Litchfield said.

WATCH: Back to school for cross country ski team

In the meantime, Turski said she’s “feeling good.” She returned to skiing in early December.

“The first run was obviously something I just needed to get it over with. It was nerve-wracking but as soon as I clicked in and started taking my first turns, everything just made sense and I feel really good,” Turski said.

Some days come with some aches and soreness but she has a full-time physical therapist on hand to help work out the kinks.

She’s also taking on maintenance workouts, cycling, and ice baths to keep her knee in check for the Olympics.

“I’m just excited to stare at the course, look down at my feet, pinch myself, realize I’m actually there. Look at my coach, look at my teammates…and let it be go time,” Turski said.

“I made it here against all odds, really.”

carmen.chai@globalnews.ca

OK, nice story, so let's consider this.....put yourself in Bradford's place, what would you do (assuming) there's some "experimental" surgery?

1. You're 26, you have your whole life ahead.....would you select an experimental surgery that (may or may not work) and if it doesn't, you stand the risk of permanent damage, pain and even possible lameness.

2. Or would you select the current and accepted procedure that requires 18 months or longer to recover froml, but at a minimum, assures a sound knee under (normal) usage-circumstances.

It's easy for us to sit in judgement or even encourage risky behavior. Just ponder those 2 alternatives and then answer to yourself which you would choose.
 

junkman

Farewell to all!
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
822
Name
junkman
OK, nice story, so let's consider this.....put yourself in Bradford's place, what would you do (assuming) there's some "experimental" surgery?

1. You're 26, you have your whole life ahead.....would you select an experimental surgery that (may or may not work) and if it doesn't, you stand the risk of permanent damage, pain and even possible lameness.

2. Or would you select the current and accepted procedure that requires 18 months or longer to recover froml, but at a minimum, assures a sound knee under (normal) usage-circumstances.

It's easy for us to sit in judgement or even encourage risky behavior. Just ponder those 2 alternatives and then answer to yourself which you would choose.

I don't think the approach they took with Kaya Turski puts Bradford at additional risk compared to any other ACL procedure. They synthetic ligament augments the natural ligament, and is just there for immediate strength to get her on the slopes faster 'cuz it doesn't need strengthening (unlike the natural ligament). Dr James Andrews has done similar things with his surgeries including on Bradford's shoulder where (if memory serves) they braided the ligament for strength.

PS - typical recovery from an ACL is 6-9 months. The Turksi approach only accelerated that by a little bit. That means the season is gone for Bradford regardless, but he should be ok for 2015 if that's what happens.
 

SierraRam

Recreational User
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
2,254
Send Pead in first and see how it goes...

Seriously, I think this is fantastic! How many pitchers' careers were saved by the experimental & controversial procedure now called Tommy John surgery?
 

iced

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
6,620
Send Pead in first and see how it goes...

Seriously, I think this is fantastic! How many pitchers' careers were saved by the experimental & controversial procedure now called Tommy John surgery?

The biggest difference that stands out to me between the olympic chick and pitchers is the amount of weight and stress put on the joint. I would say Bradford significantly outweighs them, especially the ballerina :D
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Messages
35,576
Name
The Dude
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
OK, nice story, so let's consider this.....put yourself in Bradford's place, what would you do (assuming) there's some "experimental" surgery?

1. You're 26, you have your whole life ahead.....would you select an experimental surgery that (may or may not work) and if it doesn't, you stand the risk of permanent damage, pain and even possible lameness.

2. Or would you select the current and accepted procedure that requires 18 months or longer to recover froml, but at a minimum, assures a sound knee under (normal) usage-circumstances.

It's easy for us to sit in judgement or even encourage risky behavior. Just ponder those 2 alternatives and then answer to yourself which you would choose.
I'd probably take the quick route. I did chymopapain injections in my back in the mid 80's, and that was a new method of addressing chronic back pain. It's since been discovered to be hit or miss and microsurgery has taken its place. I'm not going to wait for microsurgery to become widely accepted as the norm if I need another alternative to traditional surgery and/or pain regimens either. But that's just me. Other people are obviously more cautious and careful in their approach to these things.
 

blackbart

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
6,226
Name
Tim
Physically, of course, but the circumstances (catalyst) is not the same, nor are the circumstances (jeopardy) FOLLOWING the repair.

In any event, the comments I have read by physicians (strongly) indicates that:

1. Recovery from a 2nd ACL takes longer (generally up to 18 mo's).
2. Serious questions remain as to whether Bradford's knee will ever be the same....will the Rams willing to gamble again? Remember, his second graph will now have to come from someplace else, what impacts will that have?
3. Nerve regeneration takes substantially longer than 18 mo's.
4. Healing (blood flow) takes substantially longer than 12 mo's. IMO, this is an important element which promotes "deep healing" and cellular regeneration, key elements for healthy tissue.
5. Psychological damage to Bradford is indeterminate at this point, (think Bolger).

After all that's happened these past 10 months, would YOU put him on the field again next year? Or would you wait until blood flow (deep healing) and nerve regeneration has had the opportunity to complete itself? If he couldn't hold up to his first injury in that time period, what makes you think things will be different next season? IMO, the odds do not favor Bradford's return next season and if so, Bradford will be 28 and in his 7th season before he can even conceive being anywhere near his old self and even then there's no guarantee.
All good points but I'm not sure about the psychological point he as not taken the beating that Bulger did.

If the girl in this article can be doing Xgames and the Olympics in 6 months after her third surgery yes I would have him in surgery this week if there aren't extenuating circumstances and be ready to see him on the field next year.

The Rams have to lok to the future and have a plan to develop someone but Bradford will still be the best bet for the 2015 Rams if he can stay on the field.
 

LazyWinker

Pro Bowler
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
1,662
Name
Paul
Because the FDA is crap. I speak from experience due to my own medical issues. The U.S. is years, if not decades, behind other countries in many medical areas.
Peyton Manning went to Europe for something to help with his neck. Sometimes I get the crazy idea that our medical system is about formulating ways to generate the most revenue for the insurance companies, doctors, researchers, lawyers, and I'm probably leaving someone out.
 

rams2050

Starter
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
588
Somebody should email that article and video to the Rams' front office, and do it quick. At least it's another option for them to consider, if they haven't done so already (which seems probable).
 

LACHAMP46

A snazzy title
Joined
Jul 21, 2013
Messages
11,735
Sign me up....Send Bradford over there pronto...Or does he wanna talk to Kobe's doctors in Switzerland first? I still believe he can get this done and be back around the beginning of the year...He obviously didn't have enough healing time...He was injured in week 7, and had to wait. So this time it's week 1, and he'll wait longer.....Lets make sure his OT hasn't just returned from an ACL repair too next time....
 

mr.stlouis

Legend
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
6,454
Name
Main Hook
I'd imagine the stress on a skier's knees is somewhat significantly greater than the stress on a quarterback's knees. Can you tell me that this:

ski_park_gold_1.gif


isn't harder on the knees than this:

gif_410x280_665ed0.gif


Force equals mass times velocity. She weighs less, but she's going way faster.
It could well be applicable. That girl puts her knees through a lot of torture (phrasing...).
gif_410x280_665ed0.gif


Dang... I don't know how he blew out his knee on either play.


I'm up for anything at this point lol
 

rdlkgliders

"AKA" Hugo Bezdek
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
7,823
Name
Don
2. Serious questions remain as to whether Bradford's knee will ever be the same....will the Rams willing to gamble again? Remember, his second graph will now have to come from someplace else, what impacts will that have?
Hopefully he would go with the Allograft (cadaver tissue ) over the Autograft his own tissue. The Allograft has a much quicker healing process. I am not sure what he used previously but I bet it was the Autograft from the patella tendon. With the Cadaver (Allograft) you don't have the burden of having to heal the patella as well as the ACL like most procedures. This reduces healing time.
 

RaminExile

Hall of Fame
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,065
Hopefully he would go with the Allograft (cadaver tissue ) over the Autographt his own tissue. The Allograph has a much quicker healing process. I am not sure what he used previously but I bet it was the Autgrapht from the patella tendon. With the Cadaver (Allograft) you don't have the burden of having to heal the patella as well as the ACL like most procedures.

Its a bit yukky though....not for those of a weak stomach....
 

rdlkgliders

"AKA" Hugo Bezdek
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
7,823
Name
Don
Its a bit yukky though....not for those of a weak stomach....
Yeah, The Cadaver thing turned me off and I had time so I went with using my patella. If I was to ever have to do it again I would use the Cadaver tissue. The people I know that used the cadaver Tissue healed faster with no residual knee aches from using their Patella Tendon.
 

StLouieRam

UDFA
Joined
May 22, 2014
Messages
31
Science is incredible, I bet in 5 years time we'll have denser, stronger, 3d-printed ACLs. This surgery sounds pretty innovative, I'd love for Bradford to give it a shot.

Nobody gets better healthcare than mice though.
 

Mackeyser

Supernovas are where gold forms; the only place.
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
14,172
Name
Mack
Likely created from your own cells or a combination of synthetic and your own dna. No doubt, it'll be pretty amazing stuff...
 

Athos

Legend
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
5,933
Awesome stuff. If a free style skier, a sport where there is exponentially more torque, weight, and strain put on the knee, can come back and compete, you'd think it work on an NFL QB. But, it is medicine, and things never translate the same success rates.

Time to make Bradford the $6 million dollar man.
 

ramsince62

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
2,581
I'd probably take the quick route. I did chymopapain injections in my back in the mid 80's, and that was a new method of addressing chronic back pain. It's since been discovered to be hit or miss and microsurgery has taken its place. I'm not going to wait for microsurgery to become widely accepted as the norm if I need another alternative to traditional surgery and/or pain regimens either. But that's just me. Other people are obviously more cautious and careful in their approach to these things.

OK, but I'm sure that you can appreciate the difference between "another alternative" or something "experimental". Or maybe you're a riverboat gambler :cautious:, but I don't think so.:unsure: