Cutting Sam Bradford

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bluecoconuts

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Messages
13,073
Who the hell is Hackenburg?


Also I hate all the doctors coming out saying he will be fine or he will have a 3rd teae, etc etc. Unless they have looked at it they have no idea, and even then everyone is different. Some guys break a leg and never walk again, some guys are told they will never walk again and end up climbing mountains their entire life, including Everest (my father). I've seen guys suffer worse injuries rehab and get right back on their feet. Hell I knew a guy who lost his foot, got a prosthetic and redeployed with our unit next rotation. Maintained his jump status, everything. Plenty of guys suffered different soft tissue injuries and kept at it. Others suffered lesser injuries and couldn't. Everyone is different. Granted we weren't playing football, but there was more than enough long term damage (especially knees/legs/ankles and backs) to go around.

At this point all we can do is wait to see how it will go. I still have faith in Sam and will until he's replaced. I take no stock in draft options until they're sitting there for the taking and we're on the clock.
 

rdlkgliders

"AKA" Hugo Bezdek
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
7,821
Name
Don
I agree. Go into 2015 with Bradford, Hill, and Keenum, and if nobody impresses use as many first round picks as you need to trade up to get Hackenburg.
Love me some Hackenberg, only time will tell but so far I'm in.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Jan 23, 2013
Messages
21,792
If you PUP him you pay him $16M in cap killing salary to sit and watch.

Unless he takes a major pay cut we cannot afford to just keep him around.

I am not a certain as you that it is all about the money. I think timing has more to do with keeping or letting Sam walk. Say if the retain him and wait for a full recovery and the knee goes out again (which is reasonable to expect). The organization ends being set back for two more years waiting to develop a new QB. Unless the guy is another Andrew Luck, he will take some time to get rolling.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Messages
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Well, you may remember, I dislike Penn State almost as much as you hate Notre Dame so there is no homerism with me at all.
I was raving about this kid Saturday before kickoff. He's worth the RGIII hall hands down.
Maybe the Rams can make a trade with a team for their 2016 1st rounder and we'll get lucky....

It is going to take a team that does not need a QB to have the first pick or a Houston like collapse by the Rams.
 

LACHAMP46

A snazzy title
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Jul 21, 2013
Messages
11,735
Who the hell is Hackenburg?
http://www.pennlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/09/is_christian_hackenberg_alread.html



72544e2b615651474c6b674144742b5a

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Is Christian Hackenberg already best Penn State quarterback of all time? One man's answer
15752049-mmmain.jpg

Christian Hackenberg throws during the second quarter of Penn State's 26-24 win over Central Florida in Dublin, Ireland on Saturday. (PennLive/Joe Hermitt)
Print
By David Jones | djones@pennlive.com
Follow on Twitter
on September 02, 2014 at 2:51 PM, updated September 02, 2014 at 3:19 PM





He's still only a teenager, won't turn 20 until next Valentine's Day and already has the hearts of Penn State fans everywhere swelling with adoration. I've even heard talk the last couple of days from a few people whose opinion I greatly respect that Christian Hackenberg already might be the best quarterback Penn State has ever suited up.

Initial reaction: I hear you. The kid's skills, poise, physical tools and mind for the game give him a chance to be the prototypical NFL quarterback. It's not merely his gifts or his command of knowledge at a position that requires a constant mental juggling act. He also has that fighter-pilot vibe, that subtle cockiness, on the border of but not quite stepping over into reckless arrogance, that makes you nod and say, yep, this guy has the right stuff.

Hackenberg's precocious cool under pressure, even after starting off with a couple of poor throws, was the centerpiece of the Nittany Lions' game-winning drive capped by Sam Ficken's field goal to beat Central Florida, 26-24.

Coming on the heels of a successful freshman season that included the improbable game-tying drive against Michigan, it's natural to start comparing what he is and what he can eventually be to the best Penn State has ever produced at the quarterback position.

To be sure, that's not exactly a glittering list compared to some schools. It's not Stanford or Michigan or Purdue. Further, it's hard to compare eras at the QB position because the game has changed so much and what's expected of the quarterback has with it. But then, that's sort of a good place to start.

Considering how important a QB is now compared with, say, the 1970s and 1980s, Hackenberg naturally should be rated more highly simply because of the time he's playing in.

Ask yourself about whether even some championship quarterbacks of that era could excel in this one, then vice versa. Think of how much faster the game moves, how much better most of the athletes are, how much more demanding is the quarterback's position in dealing with varying defensive schemes and the need of split-second reaction. I don't even think it's close.

John Shafer of the 1986 national champion Lions was the classic game manager. There's always a place for such a guy given certain support elsewhere on the field, especially with the offensive line and defense. You even have QBs labeled as such leading championship teams in the current era, witness Alabama's A.J. McCarron in 2012.

But could a guy like Shafer quarterback a national champion today? Highly doubtful. Twelve years after 2002 Ohio State, I'm not even sure Craig Krenzel could do it today. I think the game's dynamics have progressed to the point where you simply must have a guy who can be highlighted in the offense.

Conversely, I don't think QBs from prior eras should necessarily be judged too harshly just because their stats don't measure up to the inflated passing numbers of today. The question is: Could those guys have done what's considered necessary today had they been asked to back then?

Here, then, is my top five in Penn State history, back to front, as it stands now. Not saying our current guy won't progress further by the time he's no longer a teenager and ready for the NFL Draft. This is how we'll judge: Given equal teammate and staff resources, who would you want to win a big game or take on a big season right now in today's football?

5. Zack Mills

I went back and forth here between Mills, Chuck Fusina and Tony Sacca. My quandary is this: Do you judge the beaten-up 2003 and 2004 Mills who regressed into a shadow of his former self or the dynamic Commode of 2001 and 2002? Fusina was a really good college quarterback. His arm was better and he had good enough skills to get a cup of coffee in the League. But at PSU, he had a killer defense on his side and adequate protection.

Mills had no such advantage. Yet, when he had a decent line and got it going as an underclassman, Mills' popgun arm didn't matter. He made tight throws, he made touch throws, he made them on the run or in the pocket. And he was fearless. Go back and watch the 2002 Iowa game to jog your memory. Later on, no PSU quarterback I saw absorbed more punishment. He was tougher than hell. I know I have an irrational soft spot for this guy but it's my list.

(Speaking of tougher than hell: Sacca in the 26-20 loss at Miami in 1991. Kept getting up from monster hits by that Hurricane defense in weather like the surface of Mercury. Will never forget that.)

4. Michael Robinson

Mills' successor just completed the longest NFL career of any Penn State quarterback other than Collins and Milt Plum. He just happened to do it as a fullback and special teams hellion. His comparatively rudimentary passing skills nixed any chance he had as pro QB.

But we're talking about college football here. And as a college quarterback, Robinson joined the bruising physicality of Tim Tebow with the charismatic magnetism of Johnny Manziel. When the team became his after Mills' graduation, he led the most remarkable renaissance in the history of the program – this after surviving 7-16 the two years prior. Folks, that is a trick almost nobody pulls.

3. Todd Blackledge

Here's another close call. How do you compare the accomplishments of a national champion quarterback from over three decades ago with a just-budding star from today? I didn't cover Blackledge. But I gained new respect for him and his era a few years ago when I sat down and watched start to finish the 1982 Nebraska game for a Philly Sports Classics special produced by The Comcast Network. That time really was the dawning in a lot of ways of the current age of college football, a game full of advanced athletes using wide and deep swaths of the field. It was a terrific game and Blackledge opened my eyes.

2. Christian Hackenberg

That said, I'll go with the kid at No. 2. His ability to calmly check through progressions and usually choose the best option even with guys hanging all over him (witness the shovel pass for the 13 yards at a critical juncture during the winning drive Saturday) is the kind of stuff you see and just smile. As an old coach put it in a text to me today: "I love watching good players play. They make really hard stuff look routine. They're not like the rest of us."

I couldn't put it any better than that. Hackenberg is that sentence. The question for him is: Can he stay healthy behind an offensive line that protected him actually rather admirably but could get no push at all run blocking? Without some semblance of balance in PSU's offense, defenses will begin scheming to attack him. Then, Hackenberg will deserve not a new NCAA stipend but hazardous-duty pay.

1. Kerry Collins

Yes, Hackenberg is so good that some admirers are forgetting Collins in 1994, the single greatest quarterbacking season in the history of Penn State football and it's not remotely close. I am not.

In other words, let's not get carried away here. True, the offense Collins played with was the Bugatti Veyron of its day. All the options, all the upgrades, riding in style. Most important, it was fronted by the best offensive line in Penn State history and that's not close, either. Four future NFL pros of some duration. Two who played 11 seasons each (guards Jeff Hartings and Marco Rivera).

So, Collins usually had whatever time he needed to throw to Bobby Engram, Freddie Scott and Kyle Brady. Then, he had arguably the best running back in Penn State history behind him Ki-Jana Carter.

That said, his performance speaks for itself. He was unflappable on the occasions Penn State was challenged later in his career (at Michigan State 1993, at Michigan and Illinois in 1994). And he confirmed his ability with an NFL career unmatched by not only Penn State standards but most others; over 40,000 air yards and 200 TD passes put him in a select group.

I'm not a stat guy but, again, this is a college football debate. So, I'll end it with this: Collins' 1994 NCAA passer rating of 172.8 ranked third in Division I history when it was set and still is in the top 30 for a single season despite the crazy numbers system offenses and the air revolution have put up in the past decade.

So, the debate is now yours; I've finished. But one man on this list has not.

DAVID JONES: djones@pennlive.com.
 

AZRamsFan93

Guest
I am not a certain as you that it is all about the money. I think timing has more to do with keeping or letting Sam walk. Say if the retain him and wait for a full recovery and the knee goes out again (which is reasonable to expect). The organization ends being set back for two more years waiting to develop a new QB. Unless the guy is another Andrew Luck, he will take some time to get rolling.
Those are good points, but to me it's not about the money(Stan has plenty) it is about the cap space that could be used to help the team.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Those are good points, but to me it's not about the money(Stan has plenty) it is about the cap space that could be used to help the team.

They seem to have things figured out with the cap. If I recall correctly it is going to be going up, up, up in the coming years according to the latest CBA. Plus starting QBs are making 15 - 20 million a year so Sam is in line with that. Now if they cut him or renegotiate and he does in fact heal up and returns to his healthy form, then they will have to have budgeted the money for him anyway, or start cutting the some of the players they spent the extra cash on.

The real key to me (if I was Snead or Fisher) would be if we were able to get a comparable player or at least a good QB that we felt could take the team all the way, then you could just say so long to Bradford. If not, having Sam in the wings waiting to get fully healthy would still have to be the better option. Say they dont like all of the projected first round QBs next year or miss out on them and dont like many of the other options either. Maybe they view them as backup material or developmental types. Then letting Sam heal up and compete later would still be the better option.

If the Rams cut Bradford some team will surely sign him cheap and wait until he is healthy, then let him compete. He is better than half the QBs in the NFL right now. Maybe better than 20 IMO. So, why just cut him? He still has value, even if the Rams draft a good young QB, because they are never sure things as we are seeing with RGIII.
 

Ram Quixote

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If you PUP him you pay him $16M in cap killing salary to sit and watch.

Unless he takes a major pay cut we cannot afford to just keep him around.
Which is why I said "restructure." And as Fearsomefour said, why wouldn't he? Especially since he would still get less elsewhere.
 

fearsomefour

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If you PUP him you pay him $16M in cap killing salary to sit and watch.

Unless he takes a major pay cut we cannot afford to just keep him around.
....and if Hill plays well enough to keep as a potential starter he will demand a large pay raise....$6-8M a year or more.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Zenellato has looked very good in practices but he is injured and I believe out for the year. Franklin has recruited some very good WRs in the last class and this one that he is working on now. He prefers size and even Moreso...speed. Matt will have stiff competition when he returns, despite his good showings at practices. A freshman stud named Desean Hamilton lead the team in receptions against UCF with 11 catches for 156 yards and Geno Lewis had 8 for 173.
 
Last edited:

Elmgrovegnome

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http://www.pennlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/09/is_christian_hackenberg_alread.html



72544e2b615651474c6b674144742b5a

g-1880.xgi
z
z

Is Christian Hackenberg already best Penn State quarterback of all time? One man's answer
15752049-mmmain.jpg

Christian Hackenberg throws during the second quarter of Penn State's 26-24 win over Central Florida in Dublin, Ireland on Saturday. (PennLive/Joe Hermitt)
Print
By David Jones | djones@pennlive.com
Follow on Twitter
on September 02, 2014 at 2:51 PM, updated September 02, 2014 at 3:19 PM





He's still only a teenager, won't turn 20 until next Valentine's Day and already has the hearts of Penn State fans everywhere swelling with adoration. I've even heard talk the last couple of days from a few people whose opinion I greatly respect that Christian Hackenberg already might be the best quarterback Penn State has ever suited up.

Initial reaction: I hear you. The kid's skills, poise, physical tools and mind for the game give him a chance to be the prototypical NFL quarterback. It's not merely his gifts or his command of knowledge at a position that requires a constant mental juggling act. He also has that fighter-pilot vibe, that subtle cockiness, on the border of but not quite stepping over into reckless arrogance, that makes you nod and say, yep, this guy has the right stuff.

Hackenberg's precocious cool under pressure, even after starting off with a couple of poor throws, was the centerpiece of the Nittany Lions' game-winning drive capped by Sam Ficken's field goal to beat Central Florida, 26-24.

Coming on the heels of a successful freshman season that included the improbable game-tying drive against Michigan, it's natural to start comparing what he is and what he can eventually be to the best Penn State has ever produced at the quarterback position.

To be sure, that's not exactly a glittering list compared to some schools. It's not Stanford or Michigan or Purdue. Further, it's hard to compare eras at the QB position because the game has changed so much and what's expected of the quarterback has with it. But then, that's sort of a good place to start.

Considering how important a QB is now compared with, say, the 1970s and 1980s, Hackenberg naturally should be rated more highly simply because of the time he's playing in.

Ask yourself about whether even some championship quarterbacks of that era could excel in this one, then vice versa. Think of how much faster the game moves, how much better most of the athletes are, how much more demanding is the quarterback's position in dealing with varying defensive schemes and the need of split-second reaction. I don't even think it's close.

John Shafer of the 1986 national champion Lions was the classic game manager. There's always a place for such a guy given certain support elsewhere on the field, especially with the offensive line and defense. You even have QBs labeled as such leading championship teams in the current era, witness Alabama's A.J. McCarron in 2012.

But could a guy like Shafer quarterback a national champion today? Highly doubtful. Twelve years after 2002 Ohio State, I'm not even sure Craig Krenzel could do it today. I think the game's dynamics have progressed to the point where you simply must have a guy who can be highlighted in the offense.

Conversely, I don't think QBs from prior eras should necessarily be judged too harshly just because their stats don't measure up to the inflated passing numbers of today. The question is: Could those guys have done what's considered necessary today had they been asked to back then?

Here, then, is my top five in Penn State history, back to front, as it stands now. Not saying our current guy won't progress further by the time he's no longer a teenager and ready for the NFL Draft. This is how we'll judge: Given equal teammate and staff resources, who would you want to win a big game or take on a big season right now in today's football?

5. Zack Mills

I went back and forth here between Mills, Chuck Fusina and Tony Sacca. My quandary is this: Do you judge the beaten-up 2003 and 2004 Mills who regressed into a shadow of his former self or the dynamic Commode of 2001 and 2002? Fusina was a really good college quarterback. His arm was better and he had good enough skills to get a cup of coffee in the League. But at PSU, he had a killer defense on his side and adequate protection.

Mills had no such advantage. Yet, when he had a decent line and got it going as an underclassman, Mills' popgun arm didn't matter. He made tight throws, he made touch throws, he made them on the run or in the pocket. And he was fearless. Go back and watch the 2002 Iowa game to jog your memory. Later on, no PSU quarterback I saw absorbed more punishment. He was tougher than hell. I know I have an irrational soft spot for this guy but it's my list.

(Speaking of tougher than hell: Sacca in the 26-20 loss at Miami in 1991. Kept getting up from monster hits by that Hurricane defense in weather like the surface of Mercury. Will never forget that.)

4. Michael Robinson

Mills' successor just completed the longest NFL career of any Penn State quarterback other than Collins and Milt Plum. He just happened to do it as a fullback and special teams hellion. His comparatively rudimentary passing skills nixed any chance he had as pro QB.

But we're talking about college football here. And as a college quarterback, Robinson joined the bruising physicality of Tim Tebow with the charismatic magnetism of Johnny Manziel. When the team became his after Mills' graduation, he led the most remarkable renaissance in the history of the program – this after surviving 7-16 the two years prior. Folks, that is a trick almost nobody pulls.

3. Todd Blackledge

Here's another close call. How do you compare the accomplishments of a national champion quarterback from over three decades ago with a just-budding star from today? I didn't cover Blackledge. But I gained new respect for him and his era a few years ago when I sat down and watched start to finish the 1982 Nebraska game for a Philly Sports Classics special produced by The Comcast Network. That time really was the dawning in a lot of ways of the current age of college football, a game full of advanced athletes using wide and deep swaths of the field. It was a terrific game and Blackledge opened my eyes.

2. Christian Hackenberg

That said, I'll go with the kid at No. 2. His ability to calmly check through progressions and usually choose the best option even with guys hanging all over him (witness the shovel pass for the 13 yards at a critical juncture during the winning drive Saturday) is the kind of stuff you see and just smile. As an old coach put it in a text to me today: "I love watching good players play. They make really hard stuff look routine. They're not like the rest of us."

I couldn't put it any better than that. Hackenberg is that sentence. The question for him is: Can he stay healthy behind an offensive line that protected him actually rather admirably but could get no push at all run blocking? Without some semblance of balance in PSU's offense, defenses will begin scheming to attack him. Then, Hackenberg will deserve not a new NCAA stipend but hazardous-duty pay.

1. Kerry Collins

Yes, Hackenberg is so good that some admirers are forgetting Collins in 1994, the single greatest quarterbacking season in the history of Penn State football and it's not remotely close. I am not.

In other words, let's not get carried away here. True, the offense Collins played with was the Bugatti Veyron of its day. All the options, all the upgrades, riding in style. Most important, it was fronted by the best offensive line in Penn State history and that's not close, either. Four future NFL pros of some duration. Two who played 11 seasons each (guards Jeff Hartings and Marco Rivera).

So, Collins usually had whatever time he needed to throw to Bobby Engram, Freddie Scott and Kyle Brady. Then, he had arguably the best running back in Penn State history behind him Ki-Jana Carter.

That said, his performance speaks for itself. He was unflappable on the occasions Penn State was challenged later in his career (at Michigan State 1993, at Michigan and Illinois in 1994). And he confirmed his ability with an NFL career unmatched by not only Penn State standards but most others; over 40,000 air yards and 200 TD passes put him in a select group.

I'm not a stat guy but, again, this is a college football debate. So, I'll end it with this: Collins' 1994 NCAA passer rating of 172.8 ranked third in Division I history when it was set and still is in the top 30 for a single season despite the crazy numbers system offenses and the air revolution have put up in the past decade.

So, the debate is now yours; I've finished. But one man on this list has not.

DAVID JONES: djones@pennlive.com.


Hackenburg is better than Collins was. Collins team was insanely talented on both sides of the ball. Collins wasn't as mature as a QB as Hackenburg is already and Hacks arm is very strong. He throws darts off his back foot. He looks like Big Ben running out of the grasp and throws on the run very well.

They only knock I have on him is that he has so much confidence in his arm that he will try to thread the needle sometimes when he shouldn't.
 

Ramatik

Starter
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
669
Who the hell is Hackenburg?


Also I hate all the doctors coming out saying he will be fine or he will have a 3rd teae, etc etc. Unless they have looked at it they have no idea, and even then everyone is different. Some guys break a leg and never walk again, some guys are told they will never walk again and end up climbing mountains their entire life, including Everest (my father). I've seen guys suffer worse injuries rehab and get right back on their feet. Hell I knew a guy who lost his foot, got a prosthetic and redeployed with our unit next rotation. Maintained his jump status, everything. Plenty of guys suffered different soft tissue injuries and kept at it. Others suffered lesser injuries and couldn't. Everyone is different. Granted we weren't playing football, but there was more than enough long term damage (especially knees/legs/ankles and backs) to go around.

At this point all we can do is wait to see how it will go. I still have faith in Sam and will until he's replaced. I take no stock in draft options until they're sitting there for the taking and we're on the clock.

I think a guy that maintained his jump status under those conditions, ... whew. That's a hero. Way beyond anything Bradford could ever do.

No, what Sam Bradford has to do isn't a walk in the park. But it is definitely do-able.

I don't think there is anyway Sam gets cut unless he gives up.