coaches with 4 straight non winning seasons to start tenure

[Stranger]

Yeah. So cut the crap.

Give me a break, the word has only been in use for 200-plus years.

the word appeared in print as early as 1795

 

[den-the-coach]

Tom Landry is the only one from that list worth a damn.

Weeb Ewbank won a Super Bowl and Jeff Fisher led the Titans to a Super Bowl appearance the fact that he did it with Tennessee might be one of the reasons he gets a year five in the Gateway City.

 

[RamFan503]

Back to the OT - should he get 5 years. My opinion, yes. I would like for his philosophy, as it pertains to team/player attitude, to be instilled for one more year into the rooks and 2nd year guys. I don't want GW gone either, which factors in. Cigs - you can have. On that, I don't think his (JF's) ego is such that he's be threatened by a strong OC. He saw McDaniel's stint with Spags, which was too much too soon - may have made him a bit gunshy.

I'm going to throw this out there as well. If Stan keeps Fish here to complete his contract, what does that say to other HC candidates? It could very well show other HC candidates that we are not of the mindset of the Clevelands of the NFL. You sign a contract and it is honored. Maybe that is not worth much in reality but I suspect it might. If I'm a HC with a plan, I will either think I can use the players on the team to effect an instant turn around or I will want to know I have the time to rebuild the team the way I want it. I think most top HC candidates will want that.

I'm fine with Fisher for another year. I of course want to see improvement and I will want to see it result in a contract extension. An extension means improvement and a team that has the makings of a perennial contender.

 

[Stranger]

Weeb Ewbank won a Super Bowl and Jeff Fisher led the Titans to a Super Bowl appearance the fact that he did it with Tennessee might be one of the reasons he gets a year five in the Gateway City.

If the guy were to turn the offensive reins over to Mike Martz, then I can see us getting to the show. But I just can't see us making that big of a transition after this 4-year trajectory.

What was it that Weeb and Jeff did between yr 4 & 5 to turn things around?

 

[-X-]

Not entirely unrelated to the OP's point, but ..

Why would a coach like Belichick look shitty in Cleveland?
Or Parcells in Dallas/NYJ?
Or Seifert in Carolina?
Or Shanahan in Washington?
Why is Coughlin on his 4th non-winning season in 7 years?

There are MULTIPLE Super Bowl Titles between those guys, and yet there are times where they couldn't get out of their own way and/or failed miserably.
Did they forget how to coach in certain years? Did Fisher get lucky when he went to the SB or did he luck his way into 13 wins in 2008?

OR. Could it be that sometimes you just need the right breaks and the right players?
And could it be that sometimes those plans just go to shit for reasons outside of your control?

 

[RamFan503]

Not entirely unrelated to the OP's point, but ..

Why would a coach like Belichick look crappy in Cleveland?
Or Parcells in Dallas/NYJ?
Or Seifert in Carolina?
Or Shanahan in Washington?
Why is Coughlin on his 4th non-winning season in 7 years?

There are MULTIPLE Super Bowl Titles between those guys, and yet there are times where they couldn't get out of their own way and/or failed miserably.
Did they forget how to coach in certain years? Did Fisher get lucky when he went to the SB or did he luck his way into 13 wins in 2008?

OR. Could it be that sometimes you just need the right breaks and the right players?
And could it be that sometimes those plans just go to crap for reasons outside of your control?

Or Petey in NE? Would the Whiners have collapsed if the whiney pant load stayed? Was Peyton a great coach to get the Aints to the big dance? Was Dungey actually a great coach?

At some point, the buck is going to have to stop at the coach. But I'm not sure an owner is wrong to look at other factors when determining if moving on is the best course of action. Maybe it is the best course - I don't know. But I would hate to see us trade Fish for another Linny or any number of HCs that have failed miserably in the NFL.

 

[Stranger]

Not entirely unrelated to the OP's point, but ..

Why would a coach like Belichick look crappy in Cleveland?
Or Parcells in Dallas/NYJ?
Or Seifert in Carolina?
Or Shanahan in Washington?
Why is Coughlin on his 4th non-winning season in 7 years?

There are MULTIPLE Super Bowl Titles between those guys, and yet there are times where they couldn't get out of their own way and/or failed miserably.
Did they forget how to coach in certain years? Did Fisher get lucky when he went to the SB or did he luck his way into 13 wins in 2008?

OR. Could it be that sometimes you just need the right breaks and the right players?
And could it be that sometimes those plans just go to crap for reasons outside of your control?

Perhaps what infuriates me most about Fisher is that he won't put the necessary building blocks in place. Namely, our owner would agree to pay for a top-tier OC, but Fisher either won't get one, or can't recruit one.

 

[-X-]

At some point, the buck is going to have to stop at the coach.

Seems as though it always does. Or the OC. How many times has Coughlin's job been threatened even though he won two Super Bowls? Hell even Vermeil was being pushed out the door after two years of futility. But then he completely changed the way he coached. Well, that's a lie. Actually he stumbled onto Warner and traded for Faulk before drafting Holt, and then he gave them all to his new OC Martz.

Banks and RB by committee as your weapons = Bad Coach
Warner and Faulk as your weapons = Great Coach

 

[rdlkgliders]

@RamFan503
Copy, I got the message honestly found it interesting, kinda just stumbled on it and thought I would share. i almost never share outside articles and it seems to me that most don't click on links.
Sorry.

 

[rdlkgliders]

Irregardless isn't a word

Use irrespective instead

 

[HometownBoy]

Did they forget how to coach in certain years? Did Fisher get lucky when he went to the SB or did he luck his way into 13 wins in 2008?

No, but your style of play/coaching/evaluation definitely can become outdated and thus make you fall to the wayside as a result. There's a reason why guys like Al Davis can go from being one of the world's best owners, a genius among all his peers and three time Super Bowl winner to the NFL's worst owner, who became regarded as the biggest laughingstock of the league, had his hand in picking some of the biggest busts of the generation and hamstrung the Raiders to the point where they're just now recovering. It's nobody's fault, and it doesn't make his achievements any less achievements, but time eventually takes everything and I feel like it's a legitimate worry.

When you haven't had a winning season in 6 years, and the team that had like 16 years of you decides that you're no longer the guy who'll take them to the promised land you've got to start to wonder after 3 years of losing and a mediocre 4th in development.

 

[Stranger]

Seems as though it always does. Or the OC. How many times has Coughlin's job been threatened even though he won two Super Bowls? Hell even Vermeil was being pushed out the door after two years of futility. But then he completely changed the way he coached. Well, that's a lie. Actually he stumbled onto Warner and traded for Faulk before drafting Holt, and then he gave them all to his new OC Martz.

Banks and RB by committee as your weapons = Bad Coach
Warner and Faulk as your weapons = Great Coach

Well, knowing when to change talent, who to exchange that talent for, how to use the new talent, and what new staff to bring in to help that new talent succeed are all incredibly important attributes of a great manager, whether in sports or otherwise.

 

[RamFan503]

@RamFan503
Copy, I got the message honestly found it interesting, kinda just stumbled on it and thought I would share. i almost never share outside articles and it seems to me that most don't click on links.
Sorry.

It's cool man. I just wanted to make sure you understood where we are on it. If nothing else, it's just good form to give your source.

 

[-X-]

No, but your style of play/coaching/evaluation definitely can become outdated and thus make you fall to the wayside as a result. There's a reason why guys like Al Davis can go from being one of the world's best owners, a genius among all his peers and three time Super Bowl winner to the NFL's worst owner, who became regarded as the biggest laughingstock of the league, had his hand in picking some of the biggest busts of the generation and hamstrung the Raiders to the point where they're just now recovering. It's nobody's fault, and it doesn't make his achievements any less achievements, but time eventually takes everything and I feel like it's a legitimate worry.

When you haven't had a winning season in 6 years, and the team that had like 16 years of you decides that you're no longer the guy who'll take them to the promised land you've got to start to wonder after 3 years of losing and a mediocre 4th in development.

Yeah, I don't think he's outdated at all. Everything in the NFL is cyclical anyway. Everybody wants to be the new innovator, but everything always circles back to its roots when it comes to football. It's trenches. Everything is won and lost in the trenches. And I don't think he fucked that up. We signed some offensive linemen that - AT THE TIME - could have proven to be the difference on offense. Easy enough to second guess signing guys like Long and Wells, but what if they didn't get injured (I know they had a history, but everyone in football has an injury history). Who foreshadowed 2 of our new O-linemen getting wiped out on one play and then losing two more on top of that? Nobody. Sometimes shit happens in the worst imaginable way and there's nothing you can do about it. Who knew Foles was gonna struggle so mightily? I mean the list goes on and on, but the buck does stop with Fisher. If stuff happens to him that he clearly didn't plan to happen, and it screws up his plans, then he has to accept responsibility for it. But I absolutely don't think anyone here (or in the media) has the right to assign blame. None of us are qualified to do that.

 

[Ballhawk]

Don't worry, Fisher will be fine. In two to four years he will have the O line up to speed and one or two receivers on the team that can read the playbook. Then you'll see!

 

[RamFan503]

Well, knowing when to change talent, who to exchange that talent for, how to use the new talent, and what new staff to bring in to help that new talent succeed are all incredibly important attributes of a great manager, whether in sports or otherwise.

And in sports, luck can often make you look like a great manager - or a poor one. But tossing a good coach without looking at all factors can get you the next Linnehan.

 

[Stranger]

And in sports, luck can often make you look like a great manager - or a poor one. But tossing a good coach without looking at all factors can get you the next Linnehan.

I understand. I'm willing to take that risk.

 

[RamFan503]

I understand. I'm willing to take that risk.

Quite the risk you're taking. Hell - if it doesn't work out you won't be able to say you told us so.

 

[Stranger]

Quite the risk you're taking. Hell - if it doesn't work out you won't be able to say you told us so.

Yup, I get it.

 

[dieterbrock]

And in sports, luck can often make you look like a great manager - or a poor one. But tossing a good coach without looking at all factors can get you the next Linnehan.

And keeping an unsuccesfull coach doesnt help matters either.
There's a reason why that list shows only 1 coach in the last 50 years kept his job after 4 straight losing seasons. And that coach lost the job the next season after 7 games.

Tom Landry is the only one from that list worth a damn.

Also of note, Tom Landry was in fact fired after 3 straight losing seasons, despite all the glory he had achieved