Captain hindsight: Robinson or Matthews?

[Irish]

You cannot look at the #2 pick in a vacuum. The question is not "who would you rather have" but, rather, "what decisions made by this regime led to making the pick they did?"

Fisher, Snead, Demoff and CO obviously saw value in the current offensive line depth, and felt comfortable enough in the primary cornerstone positions (Top 15 QB, LT, RB, WR, DE, MLB, CB) that they could use the #2 overall pick in the draft to select a project.

The reason we are asking this question now is because we do not have a top 15 QB, we have a LT coming off major ACL surgery, a MLB who week after week is getting more and more exposed as a second tier/marginal player, and still lack a dominant CB, although JJ flashes at times. We do, however, have ascending RB and WR in Stacy and Quick, as well as a game breaking DE in Quinn, so, in essence, we have half of the positions covered.

People who have a problem with the pick don't take umbrage with Robinson and his development: no one here doubts that with enough training and focused practice that Robinson can overcome his question marks and become a dominant football player. What they are really asking, is after trading up for a tiny punt returner who they have no idea how to utilize, drafting D tackle after D tackle in early rounds, and passing on many impact players who are making a difference right now, not needing 3 years to develop, is the strategy being employed at Rams park really taking full advantage of the premium draft positions this team has stumbled into, and how is it translating to success on the field?

This is more than fair to criticize at this point in the year

 

[blue4]

I would still go with Robinson. Matthews is what he is and that's about it.

With Robinson, why throw him into the fire and ruin his confidence if you know he's not quite ready? We all knew he was raw and needed to learn pass protection. Drafting Robinson is a move for the future, not necessarily the present. Robinson will most likely develop into our starting LT.. possibly starting next season.

I don't know how one could say that Matthews "is what he is" after 3 games.

 

[jrry32]

You cannot look at the #2 pick in a vacuum. The question is not "who would you rather have" but, rather, "what decisions made by this regime led to making the pick they did?"

Fisher, Snead, Demoff and CO obviously saw value in the current offensive line depth, and felt comfortable enough in the primary cornerstone positions (Top 15 QB, LT, RB, WR, DE, MLB, CB) that they could use the #2 overall pick in the draft to select a project.

The reason we are asking this question now is because we do not have a top 15 QB, we have a LT coming off major ACL surgery, a MLB who week after week is getting more and more exposed as a second tier/marginal player, and still lack a dominant CB, although JJ flashes at times. We do, however, have ascending RB and WR in Stacy and Quick, as well as a game breaking DE in Quinn, so, in essence, we have half of the positions covered.

JJ is playing dominant football right now. The QB position is what it is. There was no chance we were going QB at #2 and none of us wanted to. That would be pure hindsight. Now, arguing that we should have traded up for Bridgewater...I can understand that because some did express that opinion back then. Laurinaitis wasn't going anywhere and there was no MLB worth considering that early in the draft. As far as Jake Long is concerned, he had a rough week 1 and has looked quite good since.

People who have a problem with the pick don't take umbrage with Robinson and his development: no one here doubts that with enough training and focused practice that Robinson can overcome his question marks and become a dominant football player. What they are really asking, is after trading up for a tiny punt returner who they have no idea how to utilize, drafting D tackle after D tackle in early rounds, and passing on many impact players who are making a difference right now, not needing 3 years to develop, is the strategy being employed at Rams park really taking full advantage of the premium draft positions this team has stumbled into, and how is it translating to success on the field?

This is more than fair to criticize at this point in the year

I don't really see many people complaining about the Donald or Brockers picks nor do I see many saying we should have drafted someone else at those spots. So I don't think that complaint is relevant. The Tavon complaint, I can see that. But I disagree with your characterization of him and in the end, I have full confidence that Tavon will prove himself to be a major asset to this team.

As far as passing on "many" impact players, it seems like a ridiculous complaint to me. Not a fair way to judge draft picks. You judge draft picks on their own merits. Because, in the end, you'll almost always have "missed" if you judge it on the basis who you could have had. There will almost always be better players taken after your pick.

My opinion? Yes, their strategy is taking full advantage of the premium draft positions that they MANEUVERED themselves into. Stumbled? They made a trade to pick up those picks. They are looking long term rather than short term and I have no issue with that. Some might disagree but Snead and Fisher obviously believe they'll have the time to see it through.

 

[jrry32]

My thing is always trading back.Granit we did not know Joseph was going to be a Ram.

Was mad about trading up for Tavon Austin.Was also mad about trading up for Joyner,but love how Austin Davis is playing.A steal in Gaines.
My thing was trade back with Atlanta & take what's left.Zach Martin is playing great for Dallas.
I thought Matthew made it to the Falcons & Rams might have got value.I like all the picks though.
G.Rob has a chance to be great .You can't teach size & speed.

Atlanta had no reason to trade up. And I've never heard reliable information that they made a decent offer to trade up. The trade down would have been with Buffalo. That means no Jake Matthews. Instead, it likely means Donald at #9 and Martin at #13. Pretty darn good haul...but also doesn't give us our LT of the future.

I think fans get too caught up in trading back. I do think it's worth it to trade up in special cases as long as you're not giving up too much(would never trade a future 1st).

 

[blue4]

What was Buffalo Bills offer for? Cause Donald plus Martin plus more might have been a good way to go. I think Martin is going to turn out to be a darn good player.

 

[jrry32]

What was Buffalo Bills offer for? Cause Donald plus Martin plus more might have been a good way to go. I think Martin is going to turn out to be a darn good player.

#9, 2015 1st and 2015 4th is what they traded for #4.

 

[blue4]

I would have done that. Especially since Martin was so high on their board. No question.

 

[Thordaddy]

I would have done that. Especially since Martin was so high on their board. No question.

But we didn't and the whole your first round choice has to start week one standard is not realistic ,I don't believe it will take GROB as long to show why he was drafted as high as he was as it did Quick.
If nothing else we should all consider that viewing it according to that standard puts us in agreement with the Post Dispatch writers,who FWIW are some pretty bad people to be in step with ( half in blue cuz only half kidding)

 

[jrry32]

I would have done that. Especially since Martin was so high on their board. No question.

Easy to say in hindsight. In the moment, I don't know if I would have done that. Falling all the way to #9 is a big risk and we weren't getting any other picks in 2014. Yes, that 2015 first is great...but it's also a risk because you're uncertain where you'll end up.

Rams had a bird in the hand in the #2 pick. We'll see on Robinson but if he lives up to his talent level, it'll be more than worth passing that deal up.

 

[blue4]

Easy to say in hindsight. In the moment, I don't know if I would have done that. Falling all the way to #9 is a big risk and we weren't getting any other picks in 2014. Yes, that 2015 first is great...but it's also a risk because you're uncertain where you'll end up.

Rams had a bird in the hand in the #2 pick. We'll see on Robinson but if he lives up to his talent level, it'll be more than worth passing that deal up.

No hindsight to it. I would have done that in the moment no question. There wasn't any players available at 2 that were worth passing on another 1st round pick. Robinson would have to approach Pace levels before he would be worth that much. IMO.

 

[blue4]

Don't forget that according to most reports and some of Fisher's comments Martin was right up there on the draft board with Robinson. So they essentially gave up a 1st and a 4th next Year to get a player that didn't rank much higher than the one they would have got.

 

[So Ram]

But we didn't and the whole your first round choice has to start week one standard is not realistic ,I don't believe it will take GROB as long to show why he was drafted as high as he was as it did Quick.
If nothing else we should all consider that viewing it according to that standard puts us in agreement with the Post Dispatch writers,who FWIW are some pretty bad people to be in step with ( half in blue cuz only half kidding)

We all have our opinions !!
I don't know how long you have been watching drafts ?? I've always been one for trading back.Percect examples have been made.The RG111 gift could have been still giving.With the Bills #1 next year there is sure to be a better player after that pick who will have a better NFL career than he ever will almost guaranteed.
Yes The Rams have the players they have and you can't turn back time.I hope G Rob is the next Larry Allen.
-- Look at Dallas & there O-Line ..The Rams will have a great O-Line soon enough.This thing is just getting started.
-What's your take on Tavon ? Joyner -Rams could have had a good LBer with the lose of picks.
Patterson & Allen last year.I'm always a believer of letting the draft come to you.
--Great scouting and drafting for sure.So nice to see.Westbrook is another great UDFA just like Heckler,Bennie,D.Rich(cut).

 

[jjab360]

Don't forget that according to most reports and some of Fisher's comments Martin was right up there on the draft board with Robinson. So they essentially gave up a 1st and a 4th next Year to get a player that didn't rank much higher than the one they would have got.

I remember them saying they had Martin pretty high on the board, but never up there with Robinson. If that was true, they probably would have taken him over Donald at 13.

 

[blue4]

I remember them saying they had Martin pretty high on the board, but never up there with Robinson. If that was true, they probably would have taken him over Donald at 13.

I doubt that. Once they got an OL guy, they wouldn't take two.

 

[Mojo Ram]

I doubt that. Once they got an OL guy, they wouldn't take two.

Actually that is true. IIRC, Fisher came out and said that had A.Donald been taken...that they were prepared to draft Z.Martin at #13. I'll try to dig that up.

 

[blue4]

Actually that is true. IIRC, Fisher came out and said that had A.Donald been taken...that they were prepared to draft Z.Martin at #13. I'll try to dig that up.

That would have been quite a draft, two OL picks. Ramstalk would have been on fire. No need to look it up, I don't doubt you.
I guess after all these posts, I'm just trying to say that I don't see much difference in value between those three guys. I was for trading down before the draft, and barring that I thought Matthews would be the most useful guy to take. I viewed him much like Chris Long. A very safe, very good player would give years of good production.

 

[Mojo Ram]

May 9th 2014
http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/tag/_/name/zack-martin

Rams nearly doubled down on O-line
EARTH CITY, Mo. -- Much has been made of St. Louis Rams coach Jeff Fisher's history of passing on offensive linemen in the first round as a head coach. Entering Thursday night, Fisher had held 17 picks in the first round as a head coach and never selected one in the opening round. But Fisher long insisted that his avoidance of linemen in the first was not intentional and more a matter of circumstance. His Titans/Oilers teams had players like Brad Hopkins entrenched in their spots.

On Thursday night, Fisher bucked the trend and darn near blew it away completely by taking not one but two big uglies for his offensive line.

After using the No. 2 overall pick on Auburn offensive tackle Greg Robinson, the Rams were surprised to see a few of their favorite targets tumble down the board to their second pick at No. 13. Pittsburgh defensive tackle Aaron Donald was ultimately too much value for the Rams to pass up but had he been gone, the Rams would have gone the way of San Francisco circa 2010 and doubled down on offensive linemen.

The target was Notre Dame's Zack Martin, a player the Rams had been eyeing as a possible pick for some time. Even after passing on Martin, though, the Rams almost made the boldest of moves to add him to the haul that already included Robinson and Donald.

“We actually made an effort just a few minutes ago to go back up to try to get Martin but we were unsuccessful,” Fisher said.

After the Rams took Donald, Chicago drafted Virginia Tech cornerback Kyle Fuller and Pittsburgh grabbed Ohio State linebacker Ryan Shazier. The Rams commenced conversations with Baltimore at No. 17 about moving up for Martin.

That would have meant a move from the second round at No. 44 overall and probably cost the Rams a boatload of picks or, perhaps, a first-round pick in 2015.

"It would’ve been pricey but worth it," Fisher said. "It was a good pick for the Cowboys.”

Dallas quickly stamped out that possibility by drafting Martin at No. 16. Another player the Rams really liked at No. 13, Alabama linebacker C.J. Mosley, remained on the board and also had the Rams' attention but the Ravens took him right after Martin went to the Cowboys.

“They all went," general manager Les Snead said. "I had left and then I came back and said, 'Mosley went right after Martin.' When we got down to two, it was those three. Donald was No. 1 and it worked out for us.”

As for a possible trade with the No. 2 pick, Snead said nothing ever got too serious though Buffalo, which eventually traded up to No. 4 from No. 9, did inquire.

"They were probably the one team that was the most motivated," Snead said.

 

[jjab360]

I doubt that. Once they got an OL guy, they wouldn't take two.

Like Mojo posted, they tried to trade up for Martin after taking Donald, so I don't buy that argument. I think they had him high on their board but not higher than Donald and probably a couple tiers below Robinson. The difference in their physical abilities is a pretty huge gap, after all.

 

[blue4]

Like Mojo posted, they tried to trade up for Martin after taking Donald, so I don't buy that argument. I think they had him high on their board but not higher than Donald and probably a couple tiers below Robinson. The difference in their physical abilities is a pretty huge gap, after all.

Do you really think that the gap between their ability to play the game is that large? An extra 1st round pick large? I'm not convinced of that at all.